Lakoff vs. Luntz--Dems Just Don't Get It

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Jun 14, 2009 at 17:30


Digby cites a HuffPo story, "Dems' Bogeyman Luntz Schooled Reid, Other Dems On Messaging" that said, in part:

But the Senate Democrats already knew all they needed about such mendacious methods: Luntz himself had briefed them at a Democratic retreat earlier this year. His co-panelist: Paul Begala.

Since that January retreat, he has also briefed Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) personally, a Reid aide confirmed. The message to the leader and to the Senate Democratic caucus was the same: Words matter.

.... The Luntz-Reid meeting was also about messaging. The majority leader and the Republican pollster had met several times over the previous several years, although only met once this year, other than the retreat....

Then she says:

There you have it. The GOP messaging expert is advising both parties. No wonder everyone is selling conservative tropes and propaganda and nobody even knows what liberalism really is.

Ask yourself why in the world the Democrats would be interested in Frank Luntz's advice now of all times. Do they really think he is better at this than say ... the Obama campaign? That the Republican success of the past four years is so impressive that they need to emulate it?

Excellent points--and she adds a few more.  But the problem isn't just what the Dems are doing.  The problem is also what they aren't.  And what they aren't doing is listening to George Lakoff.  There's one good reason for this--he's not the best at the soundbite crafting.  But that's really not the rarest skill out there.  And where Lakoff does excell is precisely where Democrats are weakest--in understanding the logic of their own positions, which is the absolutely essential precursor to crafting those precious little soundbites--and a whole lot more besides.

Paul Rosenberg :: Lakoff vs. Luntz--Dems Just Don't Get It
Luntz can advise Dems and Reps alike because he's basically amoral,  It's a job.  And honesty is not part of it.

Lakoff, OTOH, is deeply concerned with honest communication, because his interest goes deeper than communication.  It goes to thought itself.  In fact, this was his key insight that got him started in the field of cognitive linguistics--a field he helped found--with his first book, Metaphors We Live By, co-authored with Mark Johnson.  The insight was this:  metaphors don't just express ideas, they shape them.

Lakoff's first book on politics, Moral Politics, was all about making sense of why liberals and conservatives believed in what they did as coherent sets of beliefs.  (Try explaining to a Martian Vulcan what taxes and abortion have to do with one another.  "Well, you see, Spock...."  Right!)  He published that book in 1996.  It was his response to the GOP victories in 1994.

Lakoff listened to what Republicans were saying, and was very puzzled.  "Here I am, a professional linguist, and I don't understand what they're saying in my native tounge!" (Paraphrase).  It was professionally embarrassing. So he set out to understand why.  Why did what conservative say make no sense to him as a liberal?  And why was the reverse almost certainly true as well?

His answer was that liberals and conservatives both use different family models to structure their most basic political beliefs, and those different models produce different structures of thought.

If the Dems had any sort of cohesive infrastructure, they would have jumped all over Moral Politics as soon as it came out and handily won back Congress that same year. (I did my part, I gave it a glowing review in the Christian Science Monitor)  

But here we are now, a full 13 years later, and they still don't get it, even though many of them now know who Lakoff is.  They still don't understand what he's saying.  They're like a kid, looking through the wrong end of a telescope.  Luntz they understand, because he does what a lot of other people do, and he's successfully sold himself as doing it better--despite the obvious flaw in that logic that Digby handily points out.  That's fine.  He's a microscope salesman.

But what the Dems need isn't another microscope.  It's a telescope.  They need to see the big picture.  And Lakoff is a telescope manufacturer. But the sad fact is, Democrats don't even realize there is a big picture.  So why the hell would they want a telescope anyways?  Isn't it just an ass-backwards microscope?  With the controls all out of place--if not out of reach?

So as a result, they don't even begin to think about the big picture.  They continue to accept the Republican's big picture framing--such as talking and thinking about taxes as a burden--and hence tax relief as a good thing, when what they ought to be concerned about is the purpose of taxation--what taxes can pay for, including all the physical and human infrastructure for creating vastly more wealth in the future, so that paying more taxes still leaves far more income left over.

Right now, what taxes could pay for would be universal health care and saving the planet from global warming.  There are no taxes on a dead planet, but somehow most people don't want that.  It's way past time that someone got that through the Democrats' heads.  But that someone is not going to be Frank Luntz.


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Steadfast (4.00 / 8)
We keep beating the poor horse, even though it's been dead for decades. Why? Well, 'cause everyone else looks at it and sees Man o' War, or Seabiscuit, that's why.

For example, take California.... The majority of its population still doesn't see the connection between union-busting, lack of universal health care, proposition 13, curdled conservatism, and the present disaster now threatening to send the entire state back to the 1930's dust bowl that half of the Midwest came across the Mojave to escape almost four generations ago.

Where is Dorothea Lange when we really need her?


opponents (4.00 / 10)
The mistake is in thinking that the elected Dems represent a party in opposition to the GOP.

We have only one party, with two arms: Republicans and Republican Lite. Both get the majority of funding from the same big business and military contractor sources. Both have roughly agreed on how to carve up electoral districts. And both favor the status quo, and staying in office.

Neither represents the interests of their members. The GOP ignores substantive changes to social issues like abortion (while pretending that they intend to do something about it), or SS and Medicare.

The Dems ignore changes to foreign policy, militarism and progressive causes like election reform, they also continue to support curtailment of civil liberties and open government.

I'm not saying there aren't some differences. The Dems wouldn't have started two wars (only one) and they will probably expand a few social services, like health care.

But what Obama is offering is a 3% change in the overall budget allocations. The ranting by the right is designed to obscure this fact and the Dems are happy to have this overlooked as well.

So the serious supporters of both parties continually find that their concerns are ignored, and people wonder why turnout is so low.

Finally, if the Dems started listening to Lakoff what would you write about?

Policies not Politics


The Last One's Easy.... (4.00 / 5)
Finally, if the Dems started listening to Lakoff what would you write about?

Dollhouse and Buffy, The Vampire Slayer, obviously!

But to your main point, I think you're really obscuring what's going on here, even though I agree you've got a point.  The disproportionate influence of corporate special interests is undeniable.  But it's not total, by any means.  We obviously don't have the ideological diversity of most other industrial democracies, and that's always been a problem with American democracy.  But there's still a very real difference between what the parties stand for.

Most importantly, we won't make progress in difficult circumstances by engaging in reductionist arguments--"You'll never solve anything until you do X."

We actually need to do six impossible things before breakfast, and obsessing incessantly over just one of them is a sure way to never even begin to understand the other five.


"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
You're better than Lakoff. (4.00 / 3)
Lakoff is soooo 20th century and Freud.  I'll take Chomsky over Lakoff any day.  I have heard Lakoff speak at least 5 times.  After the initial "That framing stuff is useful", I found he increasingly had nothing new to say.  He comes from a holier than thou place i.e. my morals are nurturing. Yours...um...suck. Which is real off putting to people you are trying to get to be open to your ideas.  

His "nurturing" crap makes Dems look like what it turns out they are, no 'nads wimpoids.  No moral core and happy to be sell outs. And boring to boot.

The real left believes in fighting for what is right.  They believe that health care is a universal human right.  They don't like Big Daddy or Big Mommy.  They believe in fraternity and sorority. We don't "nurture". We march together arm and arm.

I like this Nancy Bordier who blogs here.  I like her horizontal idea.  F**k these "crackpot realists" as Greider identifies the bipartisan sellouts in Congress in his new book "Come Home, America."  We need to go around them.  Come to Montana for July 4th to rally for Single Payer.  The Butte parade is rowdy and labor oriented because it comes from the days when Montana had the first labor unions in the U.S.  First Teamster local and first United Mine.  

And I like you, Paul.  Much better mind than Lakoff. You make it plain.  

In struggle.  


Have You Ever Seen A Mother Cat Protect Her Kittens? (4.00 / 1)
The idea that being nurturant means you can't fight has no basis at all in reality.

If I didn't know that before my sister's cat Polly had kittens when I was 8 years old or so, I damn sure learned it then.

I don't know why people attribute so many inaccurate things to Lakoff.  But this is an all-too-common one.

The reality is that testosterone swagger loses out to maternal protectiveness every single time.  You see a tomcat that's tried to mess with some kittens just one time in your life, and you never forget it.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
maternal aggression (0.00 / 0)
Have You Ever Seen A Mother Cat Protect Her Kittens?

yes, actually i have. one of my cats was almost killed, and i ended up in the emergency room.

i don't think the problem is lakoff. i think the problem is that maternal aggression doesn't look anything like this:

http://www.commondreams.org/vi...



[ Parent ]
I Don't Quite Follow You (0.00 / 0)
This is an example that parallels the problem with not listening to Lakoff.  Another example of piecemeal pseudo-pragmatism, running away from standing up for what we really want.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
maybe i'm confused? (4.00 / 1)
i'm not so sure that what the dems in deecee really want is the same thing as what we really want. if it was, i'd expect them to fight for what they want and do it badly.

instead i see them fighting someone like skala.

so, i concluded, perhaps wrongly, that the reason they aren't listening to lakoff is that he isn't telling them how to fight for what they really want. and luntz is.


[ Parent ]
Okay, Gotcha (0.00 / 0)
The thing is, there was a point in time when many, if not most of these folks supported single-payer.  The shift is a function of Washington pressure.  Lakoff is talking in terms of values, and the problem in a situation like is people bending to political pressure, and then getting defensive about it.  Not for all of them, but probably for a good chunk of them.

So, while I agree there's a split between where the Progressive Caucus is now and where the party base is, I don't see the split as deeply permanent.  It's definitely there, and sometimes it looms very larger, other times it virtually vanishes.  But this sort of split is not grounded at the level of values that Lakoff addresses. Lakoff is talking in terms of very broadly shared conceptual models.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
correction... (0.00 / 0)
or rather, skala's actions could be described as a kind of maternal protectiveness.  but not the dems. i don't think framing can change that.

[ Parent ]
Whoa, that was scary. (0.00 / 0)
You're right.  The problem isn't words even though words matter.  The problem is the loss of moral direction and the lack of will.  

[ Parent ]
Do you want to explain how Lakoff and Chomsky are counterpoints? (4.00 / 1)
I've seen that comparison a number of times in the netroots, and I have yet to see it justified to some useful degree. Furthermore, there is no idea of the taboo in Lakoff, or the effort to trace modes of representation to the sexualt, so he's hardly interchangeable with Freud.

It's cool that you have great events in Butte and all, but I'm not sure how your denigration of the feminine has done much to counter Lakoff.

And this is no small problem in the netroots: your commentary reeks of sexism, but that's not really the problem here. It's your valorization of your preferred mode of argumentation over an interest in efficacy.  


[ Parent ]
I agree with you that I got way too ADHD with this. (0.00 / 0)
Having heard Lakoff 5 times live, I now have a visceral reaction every time his name is mentioned or when he posts something like "The Obama Code"  or "Empathy, Sotomayor, and Democracy" in which he asks us to once again buy his two books "Moral Politics" and "The Political Mind".  I don't think it's helpful to keep saying that progressives are more moral or more empathetic or nicer than conservatives.  I guess I see that more clearly now that I no longer live in New York or LA.  Where I am now I am in the minority and must express myself, yes, frame things, differently in order to talk to my conservative neighbors and to try and get in their shoes.

I feel strongly about females having more say in our society.  I am female.  I think that each state should have one male and one female senator.  I'm sure that if we were putting together a new constitution, that would be a  no brainer.  I also belief that both men and women nurture and both men and women can fight.  My quibble with Lakoff is that he puts the nurturing parent opposed to a strict parent as a superior position.  

I'm just more of a Jungian and believe that we have these instincts or behaviors or psychological functions in each of us, but prefer to use one over the other and that it is part of our operating system that is different than someone else's operating system.  We can train ourselves then to put ourselves in others shoes, but we will always prefer one function over the other.  I don't believe that those with gifts of empathy given to them at birth are superior.  We each have "gifts differing" as the Bible says.  We need both the feelers and the thinkers, the introverts and extraverts, the intuitives and the sensors, the judgers and the perceivers.

Jung broke with Freud and was heartbroken about it.  So he wanted to explore why he and his mentor thought so differently about the way people behaved and made decisions.
That's where his theory of psychological type comes from.

Freud's nephew Edward Bernays with Walter Lippman made propaganda for Woodrow Wilson in order to sell WW I. They called what they did engineered consent.   The current public relations industry comes from their work.  Chomsky has written extensively about marketing and the manufacturing of consent aka propaganda.

So in my intuitive brain that sees things in patterns, I hope that the century of Freud and all that repressed stuff is over and that this century will see the yin and yang of  a more Jungian worldview come into its own.

Lakoff seems to be of that world of public relations and selling stuff with nifty packaging.
Chomsky sees marketing as not such a good thing.


[ Parent ]
Has Lakoff's Kool-Aid bender worn off? (4.00 / 3)
For the sake of argument, let's accept the Creative-Class consensus that Hillary Clinton is an egocentric, party-destroying, racist she-monster that needed to be stopped at all costs.

Still, Lakoff's fawning assessment of Obama and his nouveau-triangulation remains one of the most idiotic posts written in the course of the campaign.

I'm surprised he stopped short of pointing out that there are two "I's" in "Hillary Clinton," and none in "Barack Obama."

Luntz and Rove — plus Lee Atwater's ghost on steroids — couldn't have done a more vigorous job of re-legitimizing the Reagan-Republican brand during its historic down year than Obama did. And there's Mr. Framing cheering like a David Cassidy fan in 1972, as the Overton Window gets a big, hopey shove to the right, and the greatest orator since Aaron blows a two-year opportunity to sell real progressive agendas -- like the single-payer healthcare he once claimed to support -- to an American public hungry for real change.

Sorry, I think Prof. Lakoff has a little 'splaining to do before he's accepted as a clear-eyed expert on such topics anymore.


This Is EXACTLY The Sort Of Thing I Was Talking About Re Microscopes v. Telescopes (4.00 / 1)
I disagreed with Lakoff's take on Obama, though I could see the logic of it.

You demonized Lakoff for supporting Obama, and threw the baby out with the bathwater.

The fact that you think in such personalized terms makes it hard to see much reason to say more.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Logic and "personalization" (4.00 / 1)
As to the latter, I apologize for my inability to match the civility of Open Left writers, who have treated me to such thoughtful characterizations as "hysteric" and "deranged hate stalker" for disagreeing with them on some issues.

I am saying absolutely nothing critical of the person, George Lakoff, merely waxing snarky about how he jettisoned his once well-considered philosophy of framing in favor of fannish support for a trendy candidate.

On logic, well, for goodness sakes! His three points of distinction between Obama's approach and Hillary's are pure fantasy, as is his linchpin statement: "his vision is deeply progressive." This is truthiness of the highest order, as the estimable Prof. Lakoff sings the praises of a candidate pushing an approach that just yesterday you accurately described as never known to work.

Lakoff is no demon, and I don't call him one. But the HuffPo post I linked to should be a cautionary about hero worship -- whether Obama or Lakoff be the hero in question.

I'm very supportive of a framing-oriented approach to politics and was frankly shocked that he so guilelessly embraced a kind of politics that threw framing under the bus.

Finally, intentionally or otherwise, you're making a rather insulting framing error: claiming that my beef with Lakoff was his "supporting Obama." Where do I say that Lakoff or anyone else is disreputable for preferring one centrist Dem over another? I don't say that, because I don't believe that. But it's an easy accusation to make, just as it's easy for one of your colleagues to tell people whose preference wasn't Mr. Obama to "slither back to their ratholes," which just may represent the gold standard of unpersonalized terms.


[ Parent ]
** crickets ** (0.00 / 0)
Shorter (longer?) Paul: Calling out Lakoff for allowing political puppy love to take him off his game is socially unacceptable.

Q. How will we ever get to a rigorous discourse, if we willy nilly ascribe to Obama the role of "great man" and "deep progressive," and if we can't admit that a framing expert screwed the pooch by celebrating his disempowering framing in a time where real change is desperately needed?

A. We can't. Or, at least, odds are that we won't.


[ Parent ]
It's not a rant (0.00 / 0)
My points are quite clear and reasoned.

And yours is at least clear, as well:

There are some sacred cows which must never be the targets of well-earned snark and pointed criticism.

It's how you respond to criticism of religion and the left's handling of I/P, and how you're responding about Lakoff.

You won't debate on the merits, you put your thumb on the scale to pretend Lakoff was "logical" about Obama, and you personalize the snarker/critic and refuse to engage on substance.

You, who think so ill of "personalization" feel no compunction about calling a blog commenter all kinds of judgmental names, names that simply aren't earned by my comments, except insofar as they may challenge a status quo you are, it seems, tribally allied with.

You bring up Lakoff and framing and present a real opportunity to rethink what the Democratic Party is doing about framing its positions. But if you're not willing to deal with how even bright guys like GL helped sell us a bill of goods, we don't get to truth. We just shuffle power players in and out and hope they do right for us.


[ Parent ]
Excellent! (4.00 / 1)
I'm linking and sending this out to my mailing list and Facebook group.  Very fine critique of the problems we seem to be having in passing developing and passing progressive policy.  

Thanks so much (4.00 / 2)
for publishing this, Paul.  I've been saying similar stuff since the election.  (Well, actually since sometime in the mid-80s, but with renewed vigor since Obama finally started releasing the pathetic details of his change we can believe in - or not, as it turns out.

Feinman is spot-on (comments) in his statement of the other big problem in this mess:  the fallacy that (too many of) the Dems we have in Congress 'represent a party in opposition to the GOP.'  We have the best Congress that money can buy, and until we tackle real election reform (shorter campaigns, public financing) it looks like we're going to be stuck with it.  

Just look at the DLC!  The "liberal" side of corporate America, with perhaps some allowances for a smattering of 'social responsibility' provisions, as long as they're within the corporate guidelines for charitable giving, and as long as they don't contain any threat to the Bottom Line.

No more liberals!  Bring on the progressives.

"Ignorance is the most dangerous element in any society." - Emma Goldman


Public Financing Is A Definite Must, Agreed (0.00 / 0)
We're sneaking up on it here in California, but other states have already established a pretty good track record.

BTW, I didn't mean to belittle Robert's concerns, in case I gave anyone that impression.  I just don't want them drowning out everything else.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Drew Weston is good. (4.00 / 1)
He spoke to a meeting I attended in February and I was impressed.

I read both Lakoff's book and Weston's book and Weston's book (4.00 / 2)
is the one that the Dem DC politicians should read.....Lakoff is clearly on another level than the politicians in a scholarly way, while from Weston's writing I get  a flavor of scholarly interest combined with real world (read elections and campaigning)applications...just that less theoritical....more user friendly for the politicians.  

[ Parent ]
I Don't Get The Either/Or Of This (0.00 / 0)
Lakoff may be scholarly (much moreso in Women, Fire and Dangerous Things or oher non-political writing than in Moral Politics), but (A) his basic insight is not that hard to grasp and (B) he's also a sharper contrast with Luntz, which was the point of this diary.

I've never been a believer in OTROWism (OTROW="One True Right and Only Way") and I don't see any reason to be OTROWistic here.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
I would love it if the DC politicians read and listened to both (0.00 / 0)
but based upon the fact that the DC politicians seemed to have ignored Lakoff I can only surmise that the DC politicians can't grasp his work as easily as they would Weston's, whose book seems more focused on the world the politicians reside in......I am taking a long time to say I think the DC politicians are not smart enough for Lakoff's work and that their short attention span would react better to Weston's book.

That might seem as if I am insulting Weston but I'm not. He seems more immersed in the campaign nature of the world they reside in.....he speaks their language using examples they can relate to better, ultimately getting them to arrive at essentially the same place as Lakoff recommends.  


[ Parent ]
I heard Weston speak at a meeting here in Florida (0.00 / 0)
and the elected officials in the room grabbed their notebooks and started taking notes.  They obviously thought his information was valuable.  

[ Parent ]
Would William of Occam please pick up the white courtesy phone? (4.00 / 4)
Isn't the simplest explanation that the Dems do "get it," and that Luntz's morality is, in fact, the morality to which they subscribe?

I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  

I Think You're Falling For The Fallacy Of Division Here (0.00 / 0)
Nizkor:

The fallacy of Division is committed when a person infers that what is true of a whole must also be true of its constituents and justification for that inference is not provided.

The group behavior of Dems in DC leads to an inference of their values that's not necessarily justified as an inference of their values individually.

And, of course, it's certainly not indicative of the values of the party as a whole, defined in terms of the members, the activists, and allied political organizations.

Some DC Dems are surely not representative of the party as a whole, some are clearly bad faith actors.  But to believe that this describes all of them on the basis of group failures is to commit the fallacy of division.

It's also to overlook the power of situations to determine behavior--a topic I've been meaning to write more about for some time.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Yes, there's a language problem here (0.00 / 0)
There is a distinction between the Dems as a set of members, and the individual members of the set.

On the other hand, at some point you need to hold institutions accountable as institutions. At this point, I incline toward doing so.

Perhaps I should have used "FKDP" (the Formerly Known as Democratic Party) instead of "the Dems" to make this thought more clear.



I am in earnest -- I will not equivocate -- I will not excuse -- I will not retreat a single inch -- AND I WILL BE HEARD.  


[ Parent ]
To understand Lakoff, one needs a modicum (4.00 / 4)
of intelligence, interest and patience, as he's not an easy read. And these are three qualities that I don't detect in most of today's Dems. Today's Democratic party is mostly composed of and led by non-ideological, non-intellectual technocrats, and stuff like this mostly goes right over their heads. That's why Luntz has been so effective. His messaging is simplistic enough to not only register with the base, but with elected Repubs, who aren't a whole lot brighter than their base and would never in a billion years be able to understand what someone like Lakoff was talking about. Dems are certainly smarter, on average, but not THAT much smarter.

For Lakoff's message to be taken more seriously, there needs to be a "translation layer" between him and Dems, in the form of more effective explainers of his ideas, who can boil it down to a level that they can comprehend, and have the patience for. We live in a sound bite world, and elevator pitches are, sadly, the threshold for getting most peoples' attention these days. And it's not like his actual ideas have to be watered down to work. It's just the SELLING of them that needs to be watered down. Once they've bought into them, Dems can certainly find bright Phd types to then implement these ideas in a sophisticated way.

Yet another reason why the Democratic establishment needs smart, talented and passionate outsiders to shake things up and push them in the right direction, just as they did with the netroots, who needed to shake them out of their decades-long stupor (not that they've fully woken up yet, but at least they're not fast asleep anymore).

Obama obviously gets the messaging and framing, even if he often fails to actually implement it, be it out of fear, caution, Kumbaya, etc. But so many Dems STILL don't have the foggiest idea of how to communicate. Like, don't automatically accept the premise of a question, and don't allow the GOP framing of an issue to be the default one!

Sheesh, so much work yet to be done.

The liberal soul shall be made fat. He who waters shall be watered also himself. (Proverbs 11:25)


And the walls come tumbling down... (0.00 / 0)
Not you, the ones the Dems and Versailles have built around themselves.

I finally saw V last night. Metaphorically (and ONLY metaphorically, sheesh), I like what he did with the place. Gave it a nice fiery quality to it.

The liberal soul shall be made fat. He who waters shall be watered also himself. (Proverbs 11:25)


[ Parent ]
Best book I've read is "Death Sentences" (0.00 / 0)
How Cliches, Weasel Words, and Management Speak Are Strangling Public Language" by Don Watson.

We should have a Cliche Tax or Cap and Trade on Weasel Phrases like "Dont let the Perfect be the Enemy of the Good".
Or "It's just not gonna happen" or "It's off the table" or "a contract is a contract".

Let's fine these Democrats every time they come up with one of this melons.  

One of my favorite expressions of John Edwards was that we should speak with "the clarity of conviction".  

Conviction is what is missing.  And marketing won't help that.


[ Parent ]
If Lakoff wants to be taken seriously (0.00 / 0)
he needs to avoid writing crap like this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

Why would Reid or Obama or anyone else want to take advice from this embarrassing syncophant?  

Even if Lakoff were less clownish, Reid & Co aren't big picture thinkers.  That doesn't mean they aren't deep or that they are incapable of understanding big ideas. They don't need "Lakoff for Dummies" (Lakoff already wrote that). They just aren't interested in big visions, and neither is Obama.  

Your post indicates that Lakoff is a failure on his own terms. If Lakoff is such a messaging and linguistic genius, why does he need a translator?


[ Parent ]
Lakoff and messaging (4.00 / 1)
I think one of the core problems is Lakoff doesn't seem to give much advice for specific, individual messaging.  Some of the problem is he isn't personally very good at message crafting.  But largely it is because his entire theory is largely based on overall message structure.

In other words, he is looking to change the very foundation of the debate itself.  While someone like Obama could potentially pull this off, most individual politicians cannot.  Lakoff's advice doesn't seem like it would help an individual candidate win a debate with a Republican during an election, for example.

In fact, if your only goal is to persuade a conservative voter, Lakoff's theory actually would suggest you purposefully use conservative frames.  Operate outside of that frame and the voter won't even understand you, Lakoff states.

Now some of us realize that "using" conservative frames and living in them can be two different things.  If you know what you are doing you can take a conservative frame and manipulate it to your advantage, but very few people have that skill.

To be honest, I'm not sure exactly what Democrats should say to embrace Lakoff.  While I haven't read any of his books, I have read a lot on these inter-tubes and understand his ideas (I believe), but am not sure where his ideas really lead.  The fact that Lakoff himself doesn't seem to know either puts him at a huge disadvantage compared to someone like Luntz, who just tells people what to say.

While Lakoff fails at telling liberals what they should say, he succeeds at telling liberals what they should not say, with "tax relief" being the best example.  At a minimum, I wish Democrats would at least embrace this easy half.


There's Some Truth To This, But It Misses A Lot, Too (4.00 / 1)
Lakoff isn't at his best with crafting specific messages, that part I agree with 100%.  But he has made some very specific suggestions that are very good, and these have generally been ignored.  Back in 2003, for example, he pointed out that what was happening in the California recall against Gray Davis was a power grab.

This was hardly the only example of where the power grab frame was applicable.  But Dems never caught on to this.  Some unions did, and they used the frame in ads that were part of the successful defeat of the Gropenators slate of rightwing initiatives.  But the Democratic Party never caught on.

In other words, he is looking to change the very foundation of the debate itself.  While someone like Obama could potentially pull this off, most individual politicians cannot.

That's not true.  In fact, Obama's point is that anyone can do this, and, in fact, that people do it all the time--chose between different frames in their own thinking as well as their conversation with others.  You don't even have to be a candidate to do this.  Of course the President--whoever they are--is in the best position to do this.  And Obama is particularly gifted on top of that positional advantage.  But it's something that everyone does all the time at some level or another.

In fact, if your only goal is to persuade a conservative voter, Lakoff's theory actually would suggest you purposefully use conservative frames.  Operate outside of that frame and the voter won't even understand you, Lakoff states.

This is mistaken on two levels.  First of all, Lakoff doesn't say you should try to convince conservatives as your strategy.  He says the opposite--go after those in the middle, the ones he calls "bi-conceptuals" who use both models at different times, and will respond more to the one that's activated more effectively.

Second, Lakoff hasn't concentrated on this, but there's long-standing evidence that a large number of conservatives are programmatically liberal.  The example I've cited repeatedly is that of support for social spending, as shown in GSS data.  What this indicates is that even conservatives find some sort of rationale more salient than the big-picture conservative framing that they buy into in the abstract.  Thus, there's an even larger poll of people who are reachable with a progressive message, though that message may be most effectively delivered in a variety of different ways, rather than one-size-fits-all.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Frame (0.00 / 0)
My thought was the major goal was to alter the frames people use, thus the "foundation of the debate".  You suggest, instead, that these can be done individually.  Keep your arguement within your own frame and your arguement looks better.  In a fight between a bear and alligator, the bear is very foolish to enter the water, even if it can swim.

So even an individual should keep his or her arguments within the frame that logically concludes with the desired results.  I always got the part that by getting others to think in that frame you lead them down the desired path.  You are saying this can happen even at the micro level of an individual debating a specific policy point.

Ok, I'll buy that.


[ Parent ]
Just One Thing (0.00 / 0)
It's not either/or.  It's both and.  Your original take was correct--the major goal is "to alter the frames people use, thus the 'foundation of the debate'."  But there are various different pathways toward this goal.  

Thus, I'm not suggesting instead that these can be done individually.  I'm saying that part of how that gets done is individually, with the bear staying firmly on dry land.  We all can do our bit.  And we can push for the party as a whole, party spokespeople, etc., to do this on a mass scale.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
The Democrats Don't Need Message. They Need Action. (0.00 / 0)
When the Democrats were out of power, maybe they needed to get their message clear so they could communicate to the public that they were a better choice than the Republicans.  But now the Democrats are in power, the Republican Party is decimated, so what do the Democrats do?  Hire Lutz to develop some slick PR campaign to use to deceive their own supporters?  Turn against us, every person who worked in the last campaigns, and try to develop some tricky language to fool us into thinking that they've done something for us?

We just saw this in the Democratic shake-down of the credit card industry.  First they went out in public and raised a ruckus about how terrible the credit card companies are for charging Americans so much money, knee-busters, loan-sharks.  Then they went back into Congress and made lots of speeches saying "Oh boy, now we're really going to get tough, we need to regulate those companies."  

Then the Credit Card companies went to the Democrats with their checkbooks, and said:  "Okay, how much will it cost us for you to forget this whole thing?"  And the Democrats told them how many millions of dollars they wanted the Credit Card companies to "contribute" to the Democratic politicians.  

Once the payment was received, the Democrats passed a bill mandating that from now on, when the Credit Card industry raises the interest rates by more than 10% in a month, they have to say "Please" in the notice to consumer.  And then, to finish the act, the Democrats (including Obama) went out in public and proclaimed this to be the most significant change in Credit Card Law ever in the history of the country, the Democrats have saved the people, got tough finally, we should all be grateful.  That's the exact type of public manipulation and deceit Lutz promotes.  And now the Democrats have hired him.

We're being conned.  I'm going to make a list -- an "action" list -- of everything the Democrats promised they would do.  Let's see how thorough the repudiation and breach by them since they took power.  I don't think they have done even one thing to help the working people of this country.  What a complete betrayal we are witnessing from the Democrats.

http://NABNYC.blogspot.com  


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