Who's Calling Who Crazy? Centrist/Extremist Theory & The Marginalizaiton of The American Majority

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Aug 15, 2009 at 17:00


As an off-shoot of my 3-part series on Michael Lind's screed, "Are liberals seceding from sanity? The left is crazy to insult white Southerners as a group", I want to focus attention on a seemingly obscure point that Lind gets almost completely wrong.  To do this, I'll begin quoting from him at some length, but the purpose is only to introduce the real subject of this post--the role of what's known as "Centrist/Extremist Theory" in marginalizing the left today (read "Medicare for All" in the health care debate) and thus inadvertantly opening the way for the extremist right, in the form of Birthers, Deathers and crazies of all kinds.

Here's Lind laying out his thesis in the first two paragraphs of his piece:

Back in the 1960s, Seymour Martin Lipset and Richard Hofstadter and other liberal sociologists, historians and political scientists, puzzled that anyone could support Barry Goldwater rather than Lyndon Johnson, concluded that Goldwater supporters were deranged. They didn't say so directly, of course. They said that members of the radical right were emotionally disturbed victims of "status anxiety." The evidence? They didn't vote the way that Lipset and other academics thought that they should vote. Therefore they had to be crazy.

In the decades since, far better scholars than Hofstadter and Lipset, for whom history and sociology are not exercises in partisan Democratic mythmaking, have established that Goldwater and Reagan Republicans often were highly educated, socially secure individuals who happened not to share the values of liberal professors and journalists. This scholarship has been wasted, to judge by the glee with which the liberal blogosphere, in the aftermath of the ephemeral "Birther" flap, has dusted off the old conservatives-are-crazy meme, and revised it to suggest that all white Southerners are crazy.

There are countless misrepresentations and falsehoods, in these two paragraphs, but here I will focus on just one:

It was McCarthy that first got these intellectuals going, and the intellectual history here is far more complicated than Lind lets on.  These "liberal social scientists" were, in fact, establishment intellectuals constructing a narrative to marginalize critics on the left.  Their intent was to characterize both left and right "extremes" as irrational.  And doing this was a way of removing political substance, and power relationships (class struggle, White supremacy, etc.) from any consideration.

Paul Rosenberg :: Who's Calling Who Crazy? Centrist/Extremist Theory & The Marginalizaiton of The American Majority
This began around the time of McCarthy, and a new wave of progressive critics would emerge to criticize this practice--most notably Michael Paul Rogin, author of The Intellectuals and McCarthy and Ronald Reagan, The Movie (And Other Episodes In Political Demonology), among other works.

As Rogin argued quite effectively, this intellectual project allowed a bunch of Jewish immigrants intellectual kids to recast nativist bigots as un-American extremists and recast themselves as the embodiment of mainstream America--nice work, if you can get it!  If I had to choose between the nativist narrative, and the hijacking of it, I'd certainly prefer the hijacked version, beause the good guys in it are not only a lot more like me, they're also a good deal less violent.  But both narratives are equally mistaken in drawing arbitrary lines between mainstream and margins, and in virtually disappearing the real substantive issues of politics and realities of political power that the mainstream/extremist narrative serves to hide.

In their essay, "Repression and Ideology: How Police Justify Labelling Demonstrators as 'Terrorists'", Chip Berlet and Matthew N. Lyons of Political Research Associates, identify "Two Flawed Theories" that lie behind the ideology of state repression of political dissent.  The first is "Countersubversion Theory", which they introduce thus:

Countersubversion theory was influenced by nativism and took shape as a form of government repression during nineteenth century industrial struggles and early twentieth century scapegoating of immigrants.2 Faced with a rising tide of militant labor activism, corporate elites and state agencies blamed the unrest on a few ringleaders conspiring to foment criminal subversive activity and eventually armed revolution. Following WW1 and the Bolshevik revolution there was a backlash against immigrants to the US from Italy, Russia, and other countries. These immigrants-seen as diluting the White Anglo-Saxon Protestant essence of the culture and nation-were scapegoated for purportedly bringing subversive "alien" ideas such as socialism and anarchism into the country and thus threatening law and order and even national security.3

Countersubversion theory emerged as the analytical model favored by corporate elites and private security firms to enlist state agencies in an effort to repress strikes and civil unrest aimed at industrial worksites and mines. Countersubversion theory later expanded beyond its early focus on alleged labor agitation and organizing by communists and anarchists to see all dissident social movements arising not from any real social or economic conditions, but as the creation of outside agitators who comprise a cadre at the epicenter of the movement. These leaders use the movement as a front to hide their plans for criminal subversive activity and eventual violent armed revolution.4

The second theory, however, that is directly germane to our discussion here:

Theory Two: Centrist/Extremist Theory

Many discussions of right-wing and left-wing popular movements routinely portray such movements as bizarre fringe phenomena fundamentally at odds with the political "mainstream." Generally the premise is that the US political system has an essence of democracy and freedom, but that this essence is threatened by "extremists" of one variety or another.

Centrist/extremist theory was formulated in the 1950s by liberal and moderate intellectuals such as Daniel Bell, Richard Hofstadter, Nathan Glazer, David Riesman, Seymour Martin Lipset, Earl Raab, Peter Viereck, and Alan Westin. They were members of the circle that would later evolve into the neoconservative intellectual movement. Many of them were former Marxists who had rejected the Popular Front and embraced a militant Cold War anticommunism, yet they defended the New Deal and criticized the "excesses" of Joseph McCarthy's red-baiting. In books such as Bell's anthology The New American Right (1955) and its expanded edition The Radical Right (1963) they glorified the political center against "extremists" at both ends of the spectrum.

Centrist/Extremist theory, especially as outlined by Lipset, Raab, Viereck, and Bell, sees dissident movements of the left and right as composed of outsiders-politically marginal people who have no connection to the mainstream electoral system or nodes of government or corporate power. Social and economic stress snaps these psychologically fragile people into a mode of political hysteria, and as they embrace an increasingly paranoid style they make militant and unreasonable demands. Because they are unstable they can become dangerous and violent. Their extremism places them far outside the legitimate political process, which is located in the center where pluralists conduct democratic debates. The solution prescribed by centrist/extremist theory is to marginalize the dissidents as radicals and dangerous extremists. Their demands need not be taken seriously. Law enforcement can then be relied upon to break up any criminal conspiracies by subversive radicals that threaten the social order.

Centrist/extremist theorists portrayed the political mainstream as an "open democratic market place"21 where a rich array of interest groups competed freely and fairly, and where "the sources of power" were "difficult to locate."22 The center was a realm of political civility, pragmatism, rationality, and tolerance. The extremes were the opposite of all this: absolutist, moralistic, unrestrained, irrational, and paranoid. "[T]he extreme right," wrote Hofstadter, "stands psychologically outside the frame of normal democratic politics, which is largely an affair of compromise."23 The difference could be expressed as one between "interest politics, the clash of material aims and needs among various groups and blocs; and status politics, the clash of various projective rationalizations arising from status aspirations and other personal motives."24

The point of quoting this at length is not just to portray Lind's narrative as simplistic--which it most certainly is--but to underscore that the theoretical tradition he's attacking is not that of the progressive left, but of the corporate center, and that it was deployed equally against both left and right.

In fact, the false equivalence of left and right is one of it's central and most pernicious features.  This is why, in short, single-payer advocates were given such complete short-shrift in the health care legislative process, ironically opening up political space for the Birthers and Deathers to flood into once the corporate elite special interests had already gotten the lion's share of what they desired.

What happened between the 1950s and today was that the political establishment shifted dramatically to the right--something that happens routinely as an imperial power reaches its apogee and then heads into decline.  The intense concentrations of wealth that were the subject of Dan's diary earlier today are but one symptom of this dramatic shift.  By it's very nature, the political mainstream filters out virtually all narratives that would serve to critically reflect on this momentous shift.  And, of course, the two political parties continue to operate at their topmost levels, almost as if nothing had happened.  But the vast majority of the American people have no such luxury available to them.

This is why, for example, we have 47 million people without health care, and a proposed "solution" whose main thrust will be to force each and every one of them to begin paying mandatory taxes--which few, if any of them can afford--directly to the insurance cartel, without the government playing any middle-man role whatsoever.

But it's not just health care policy.  The same is true of global warming policy, where even the "responsible" environmental groups are pushing for legislation that their own scientists know will not be sufficient to avoid catastrophe.  Reality itself simply doesn't matter in our political process any more.  Only "political reality" matters, and that political reality is entirely disconnected from the real world.

So it is that an apparent "minor detail" of historical scholarship leads us to a completely different picture of the large-scale political dynamic that's unfolding around us today.  Ironically, some of Lind's deepest political instincts, oriented toward empowering and lifting up the economic everyman and everywoman, would be much better served if he were to recognize the true origins and ideological purposes of the psychological explanations he rails against.  Instead, his unfocused diatribe attacking "liberals" is as far off the mark as anything he attempts to criticize.

It bears noting that much of the subsequent research into political psychology has no necessary relationship to Centrist/Extremist Theory.  My own use of such research, for example, is pointedly not to justify mainstream political decision-making.  Indeed, as just noted above, things have shifted so dramatically since the theory was first propounded that it's now the political mainstream--including Obama's refusal to investigate and prosecute the criminal and delusional activities of the Bush Administation--which systematically excludes rational/empirical fact-finding and political debates based thereon as the foundation for political action.


Tags: , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
I think this (0.00 / 0)
is a much more cogent piece than your earlier two, Paul, and I find your history basically correct.

But what I argue, and what I have been arguing all day, is that although WE tend to view the moral character of our politics as unchanged, despite the compromises forced on us by the neoliberal elites that we are forced to do business with, this is less than obvious to people outside our orbit.

We - all of us - are in a bind.  We need to recognize that bind and keep it in mind - before we rush off to make facile generalizations about those who don't see these things as we do.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


WHAT Facile Generalizations? (0.00 / 0)
I'm afraid that Lind is in the classic finger-pointing position: one finger pointed at Drum, three pointed back at himself.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Primarily this one: (0.00 / 0)
All this crazy opposition to the Obama administration must be a cover for racist oppposition to a Black president.

Maybe it in some cases it is, in some cases it isn't but there are entirely too many people who don't know going on TV and reiterating this point, based on nothing in particular.

Which is not to say that people like Glenn Beck shouldn't be slapped down for his racist remarks, and it's great that people are boycotting his advertisers.  And I had no problem with Obama calling out the Cambridge police either.

But it's the careless fingerpointing at entire regions that bothers me.  It's strategically and tactically stupid and has no benefit other than to the speakers.

Paul, I'd like to know why it doesn't bother you!  

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
Why? (4.00 / 2)
Paul, I'd like to know why it doesn't bother you!  

Well, of course it bothers me.  But not nearly as much as the South itself bothers me:

All things considered, the Dems could do a lot worse than have the nation as a whole finally return a small percentage of the venom that South has spewed at the rest of us for most of our history.

Of course I'd prefer to do without any venom at all.

But that's not really an option now, is it?

Bullies never like it when people hit back.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Lind's take on Hofstatdter is all wet (4.00 / 1)
Hofstadter's analysis of popular political movements in terms of status anxiety and anti-intellectualism was a reaction to the progressive historians who preceded him as much as McCarthyism or populism as defined by Hofstadter in Age of Reform.  

Like many other observers of American political culture, Hofstadter wondered why the socialist ideas that took root in western Europe enjoyed such limited currency in the US. Hofstadter's answer was that a ideological consensus based on liberal freedoms dominated American political culture since the founding, and that squabbles between the left and right were not over fundamental notions of political legitimacy, but the personal insecurities of specific social groups writ large.  

Historians have since revised Hofstadter, and no one who has read Lawrence Goodwyn's The Populist Moment can take Hofstadter's ideas at face value again.  

But Hofstadter legacy lies in the far more supple framework for the analysis of political ideology he left behind.  Where his progressive predecessors tied interest to capital rather crudely, Hofstadter developed a neo- or even post-Marxian theory of "false consciousness". Moreover, like Louis Hartz, Hofstadter was deeply concerned about Americans understood their political culture portended potentially disastrous results as we tried to export that culture abroad in the name of democratic freedom.  

Perhaps Hofstadter's greatest contribution lies in the historians he trained like Eric Foner and Christopher Lasch, scholars who have redefined the study of the American past and stand as a tribute to their mentor's high intellectual standards and critical objectivity.  Moreover, aside from Henry Adams, there's no better writer of American history than Richard Hofstadter.        


Hofstadter Was Certaunly More Sophisticated (0.00 / 0)
than those who went before him, and he set a standard for more complex explanations that was all to the good.

But the Centrist/Extremist was simply wrong, full stop.  It was, itself, a far too simplistic explanation.  See, for example, the structural/historical factors discussed in the paper I reported on last weekend in my diary "Racial Divisions vs. Public Social Spending".

He certainly was a good writer.  But I'd hardly place him almost alone in Olympus as you do.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I didn't place him in "Olympus" (0.00 / 0)
But Hofstadter remains the most influential historian of his era.  From that period, I actually prefer the more Beardian C. Vann Woodward or Edmund Morgan (who has reinvented himself a number of times).

And I think you and many others are too quick to buy into the idea that Hofstadter, Reisman, and Louis Hartz - expressed a simplistic "centrist v. extremist" view of  American politics ala Daniel Boorstin and Lipset.  While these scholars are often lumped together, such categorization does a disservice to our intellectual history.  

To describe Hofstadter and Reisman proto-neocons is just plain sloppy and ignorant.    


[ Parent ]
I Agree (0.00 / 0)
That Hofstadter shouldn't be lumped in with the crowd who wrote The New American Right.  Nor should Reisman.

But to the extent that folks bought into a shared framework that marginalized political extremes, treating left and right equally, they can sensibly be regarded as sharing a viewpoint that can be criticized in common terms, and much of the impetus for this came from the erstwhile student socialists on their long, slow trajectory toward the late-60s incarnation of neocons, who had as much difference as overlap with the later neocons.  (Nathan Glazier and Daniel Patrick Moynihan amongst the former, for example, hardly had much in common with the later version.)

I remember reading Hofstadter back in the 60s, as a teenager, and I just felt like he was a very smart man in a straightjacket.  I still tend to see him that way.  Coming of age in the aftermath of McCarthyism, I had a rather dim view of those who appeared to misread him in various ways, and comparing him with the Populists defintely put Hofstadter into that camp, though he was not like most in there with him.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Lind would be well served to read V.O. Key (4.00 / 2)
If Lind is really interested in understanding the basis southern political power in the mid-twentieth century, he needs to look at Southern Politics in State and Nation and learn a little bit about the black belt and its relation to control of the US Senate.  

And then... (0.00 / 0)
...read Byron Shafer's The End of Southern Exceptionalism to really blow your mind.  

[ Parent ]
On a much less sophisticated level (4.00 / 4)
Today I heard Arkansas Democrat Mike Ross, the leading house Blue Dog on health care reform and no fan of a public option, say, predictably, that his being attacked from both extremes was a sign to him that he was doing something right.

I.e. crazy wingnut teabaggers screaming about death panels and socialism are equivalent to people who want the US to join the rest of the world in providing decent health care for all?

Nice, Mike. Say hi to your friends at WalMart & Tyson foods when you see them.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


This is the danger of describing political ideas as "left" and "right" (0.00 / 0)
It's good for demagoguery, but not much else.  

[ Parent ]
Huh??? (4.00 / 2)
There's a great deal of utility in describing ideas as left and right.

The fact that people can demagogue them is about as relevant as the fact that people can use carrots to poke out each other's eyes.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Damn carrots (4.00 / 1)
We should have banned them years ago. Where our carrot czar, dammit?!?

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
We Came Soooooo Close! (4.00 / 1)
We should have banned them years ago.

We canned them.  Just one lousy letter off.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Ok, then we need an alphabet czar as well! (0.00 / 0)
What good is FreeDumb if you can't spel?

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
Would you describe people who refuse to teach evolution right wingers? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Insufficient Data (0.00 / 0)
It's certainly a rightwing position nowadays.  But one position does not an ideology define, and there's a great deal of fuziness in people's positions, as I've written about myself on various occasions.

Plus, things change over time,

Gays serving in the military is a centrist position nowadays.  It one was so radical it was unthinkable.

None of this means that the terms are meaningless.  Any more than "up" and "down" are meaningless just because interpreting them is always contextual, hence relative.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I think that right and left represent clusters of positions on issues (4.00 / 2)
that change over time, but whose core ideological basis stays more or less the same. Broadly speaking, the right has been about powerful elites trying to dominate everyone else (however much they tend to play the role of populist demagogues to fool the unschooled, irate and easily manipulated among the latter), and the left has been about unpowerful non-elites trying to get more fairness, equity and liberty for themselves.

E.g. Lords vs. Commons, Versailles vs. National Assembly, Federalists vs. Republicans, Conservatives vs. Liberals, etc. The issues change, but the core motivation stays the same.

And abortion, of course, is about control, over a woman's body and right to choose what to do with it. A classic right vs. left issue as I see it.

And I think that once certain issues are settled, practically speaking, they cease to be right vs. left, and are adopted by all but the most extreme as mainstream positions. E.g. slavery and civil rights, women's suffrage, the constitutionality of the Air Force (heh), etc.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Oops, you wrote evolution and I thought abortion (4.00 / 1)
But even with the teaching of evolution, I would argue that the willful denial of objectively provable reality in order to preserve traditional but debunked interpretations of said reality and in so doing prevent young people from enjoying the benefits of modern scientific research and thinking (and thus obtain the tools of self-empowerment) is inherently right-wing. Again, it's about preserving elite power and denying it to the masses, not the issue itself.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
But a discussion about a series of preferences on a variety of positions (0.00 / 0)
inevitably outstrips the descriptive capacity of unidimensional terms like left and right.  

I'm not saying the words are meaningless, just that they add very little in the way of real information to political debate.

That you could substitute "up" and "down" for "left" and "right" with no loss of conceptual clarity whatsoever speaks to the limitations of these terms.    


[ Parent ]
The terms right and left themselves (4.00 / 1)
came from the relative seating positions of the conservatives and liberals in the French National Assembly, IIRC. It's totally arbitrary in that sense, but the connotation lives on.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
I know the origins (0.00 / 0)
I'm just very skeptical that those terms help to bring us into contact and conversation with those origins and other historical contexts in a meaningful way.  

[ Parent ]
Why not? (0.00 / 0)
So long as issue positions are justifiably and consistently associated with one or the other, what does it matter what terms are used? It's a convention. Discussion requires conventions, even as they it continually challenges them. But I don't see a reasonably challenge here. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you? What issues are not properly right or left that are often associated with one or the other?

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
Huh? (0.00 / 0)
I wasn't "substituting 'up' and 'down' for 'left' and 'right'".  I was presenting an anology.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I never said you were (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Merely that you could (0.00 / 0)
with no loss of conceptual clarity

[ Parent ]
Add bimetallism, prohibitionism, and pacifism to evolution (0.00 / 0)
and we have William Jennings Bryan.

Maybe describing "left" and "right" as meaningless is an exaggeration.  

But such simplistic terms do not permit for an intelligent understanding of the development and formation of political preferences over time, and are therefore useless in articulating the type of comparative framework necessary for a useable past.  


[ Parent ]
Balderdash! (0.00 / 0)
There's a good deal of empirical research showing that people who are more informed about the political process have more ideological coherent positions than those who are less informed.

This is a very good indication that ideological coherence is anything but arbitrary and extraneous.

I think that the problem here is you're testing the terms against an ill-defined pre-determined ideal of what useful terms would be so far as you're concerned, and then finding them wanting.  But that's a highly arbitrary approach to be taking.

As Mike's book makes clear, progress at the national level tends to take place in short bursts that occur when and only when there is a governing progressive majority.  This has happened far too consistently to be explained by chance, and only makes sense if left and right really are sensibly quite different from one another.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I love the word "balderdash" (0.00 / 0)
But I don't see how the historically contingent manifestations of ideological coherency that you correctly point out are, again, described coherently in terms of left and right.

That thoughtful people express coherent positions does not mean that the analysis of such positions for the purpose of comparison is served by reducing them to positions along a flat continuum from left to right.  

Such a analytical framework, once again, makes it easier for demagogues to claim that the "vital center," if I may quote another Boorstin-era advocate of the "centrist/extremist" paradigm, Arthur Schlesinger Jr.  

I'm going on at length over what is fundamentally a simple quibble with your statement that "there's a great deal of utility in describing ideas as left and right." As you can see, I disagree.  


[ Parent ]
I don't believe that Paul is arguing (0.00 / 0)
that one can see things only from a neat and linear right-left spectrum. He just said that it's useful, not determinative, in analyzing politics.

And as I wrote below, there are other dimensions, and right and left is but one of them. However, it still remains the most dominant one, as far as I can see, around which the others tend to cluster. As with galaxies and molecules, political ideas and positions tend to cluster, and the right-left spectrum tends to be the most useful way to broadly categorize them.

Can you come up with contemporary examples that can't be positioned on this spectrum?

Actually, I can, radical libertarians. Those people are nuts!

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Look at the southern senators who supported the New Deal, (0.00 / 0)
whose votes made it possible, and whose preferences went a long way towards determining the parameters of reform, then tell me about "left and right" being "sensibly quite different from one another" in a fundamental way that is predictive of political practice and outcomes over time.  Indeed, "left" and "right" or, more accurately, "liberal" and "illiberal" prove mutually constitutive in the context of understanding New Deal reform.  

I'm not being arbitrary.  Rather, I demand a multi-dimensional approach to the analysis of politics that looks at section, ethnicity, religion, class, status, etc. which simple distinctions between "left," "center," and "right" cannot support.  This is especially true when drawing conclusions across broad stretches of time and space.

Whoever would describe a "progressive majority," needs to go well beyond "left" and "right" as some sort of fundamental cleavage in American politics.                


[ Parent ]
Bullpucky! (0.00 / 0)
I'm not being arbitrary.  Rather, I demand a multi-dimensional approach to the analysis of politics that looks at section, ethnicity, religion, class, status, etc. which simple distinctions between "left," "center," and "right" cannot support.

Just because there are different cleavages doesn't mean that folks still won't fall along a spectrum.  Which is why folks talk about social liberals vs. social conservatives.

What's more, "divide and conquer" is an age-old conservative strategem, intended in part to use a multiplicity of cleavages against one another to prevent any sort of real substantive change from being achieved.

In diametric contrast, leftists/progressives routinely seek to unify people across such cleavages, so that progressives on one issue are not being played off against progressive on another.

Thus, you denial of an underlying unity is itself an anti-progressive ideological position.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
B.S. (0.00 / 0)
Theodore Bilbo is now a reflection of the "underlying unity" of a progressive position:  who knew?

I think you're being wildly simplistic, but will agree to disagree with you and look forward to reading what you say soon.  


[ Parent ]
Rendezvous (0.00 / 0)
At one point during the Depression, the South elected 118 white Democrats and two white Republicans (both from the mountains of east Tennessee) to the US House.  All the Senators, of course, were white Democrats.

According to Rendezvous With Destiny, FDR soon realized that the establishment conservatives were backing conservative Democrats in the South (with great success) and Republicans in the rest of the country (with a lot less success).  He had two choices.  He could either try to co-opt them in some way through items like rural electrification (a very big deal) or he could try to replace them with national Democrats.

As we mostly know, FDR had some initial success but as things got a little better and the scare wore off the southern Dems got more conservatuve.  He was able to elect a few (very few) national Dems but that was not enough and things eventually fell apart a bit.

The South today is a whole lot less monolithic.  The numbers may not sound wildly high but we currently have 13 black southern Democrats in the House, six Hispanic southern Democrats, three Hispanic southern Republicans (all from south Florida plus the rather shaky Senator Mel Martinez who is departing).  We have a lot of Republicans.  We have maybe a dozen white national Democrats whose numbers have been growing.

This is a whole lot more rational divide from the one party rule of the mid 1930s when most southern House seats went unopposed in the general election. One party leads to all sorts of odd things including partial support for the New Deal.


[ Parent ]
Right (4.00 / 1)
The one-party South was pretty much a blockade.  Much like the GOP is today.

To bad Obama doesn't know a lick of history.  I always knew that Ivy League educations were over-rated, but Occidental is supposed to be better than that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You're forgetting the temporal dimension (4.00 / 1)
that always has to be considered when considering right vs. left. What is right or left now was not necessarily so in the past. Specific issues are one or the other at a given point in time, not in and of themselves. But the underlying ideologies that in each era make an issue right or left tend to remain stable over time, which tend to be about powerful elites vs. everyday people.

One also has to consider that there are other dimensions that aren't neatly right vs. left. E.g. populism, which tends to be associated with the left, but obviously there are right-wing versions of it. And elitism tends to be associated with the right, but there are LW versions of it. And so on. But generally speaking, I'd say that RW populism tends to be conservative and supportive of monied elite power, whereas LW populism tends to be the exact opposite.

In the case of Bryan, I'd say that he was in some ways a Jeffersonian Democrat, railing against centralized government and corporate power, and thus firmly on the left, but in some ways simply a religious and economic ideologue averse to new ideas, and thus "right" in the sense of being a precursor to today's teabaggers. Then again, Jefferson himself was a precursor of today's Paulian libertarians, with his almost irrational fear of centralized government, so in a way he too was on the "right".

Not everyone is consistently on the right or left on all issues. Not now, and not in the past. Hell, even Goldwater supported civil and even gay rights in the end, while remaining a staunch conservative. Plus, there are different "flavors" of right and left, that don't fall in neat linear positions along the right-left spectrum.

Again, there are many dimensions to consider, and right vs. left is just one of them.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
I agree (0.00 / 0)
but I specifically talk about "comparison" for a "usable past," which is inherently temporal.  


[ Parent ]
No such thing (0.00 / 0)
These things change over time and sometimes reverse position. I find myself unsatisfied with either the Federalist or Republican position in the country's early years. Jefferson was a hypocritical nut who nevertheless had good reason to fear a too-strong central government, and Hamilton was an authoritarian law and order freak who nevertheless grasped the importance of checks and balances on excessive power. Jefferson isn't my kind of "left" given his excessive paranoid libertarian streak, and Hamilton comes closest to a "right" that I can relate to (with some serious reservations of course), except for Lincoln perhaps.

I wonder which side each man would identify with most if alive today. I'm guessing that it wouldn't be obvious. Jefferson would probably be a Paulite/Naderite consuming massive quantities of Prozac, while Hamilton would happliy be a neoliberal DLCer.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
You're pointing out why "left" and "right" (0.00 / 0)
in and of themselves have very limited utility; they have no necessary content; I agree with that; Jefferson also conceived of the Northwest Ordinance, by the way.  

[ Parent ]
But they're rarely used in and of themselves (0.00 / 0)
Qualified, they have much value. Unqualified, I agree that they're of limited use.

And Jefferson was a roiling bag of ideological, policy and personal contradictions who didn't understand modern finance or economics and disengenuously believed in limited government and self-sufficiency, while living off of his big government-enabled ancestors' great wealth his whole life. Had he accepted that Hamilton's broad vision for the country's future was the inevitable one, and worked with him to moderate it with more checks and balances rather than try to destroy it, we might have avoided lots of problems down the line. Talk about an era in which we actually needed bipartisanship. Jefferson acted stupidly during that era.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Your retelling of the old Federalist v. Democrat debate (0.00 / 0)
in terms of "inevitability" elides the tremendous appeal of Jefferson's policies across the country.  If Hamilton's policies were so "inevitable," explain Jacksonian democracy and the dissolution of the Federalist party after the War of 1812.  While you're doing that, look at the Whig opposition and ask which side had a more robust notion of the potential for ordinary citizens to participate in the political process.    

Describing Jeffersonianism in terms of the psychology of its namesake - the "Jeffersonian Mind" if you will - is not only an antiquated approach, it doesn't permit for understanding his dominance of Congress, the influence of people like Albert Gallatin - one of the shrewdest economic minds of the early republican era, and the context of world war in which the US was founded.  

If you want to understand the problems we face with finance capital, look at the Reconstruction and the era of American industrialization, and then your attempts to describe what Jefferson and the antibellum Democratic party stood for won't seems so crude and ahistorical.  


[ Parent ]
Well (0.00 / 0)
First of all, Jackson pretty much invented the imperial presidency, which Jefferson and the anti-Federalists feared and cautioned against. He might have done it on "Jeffersonian" principles, i.e. power to the people instead of to the bankers and corporations, but he did it via the accretion of central power within the office of the presidency. Had Jefferson's idea of Republicanism won out over Hamilton's idea of Federalism, congress and the courts would have had equal power to the executive, as well as the states, via Calhoun's nullification theory. They did not, under Jackson. So win #1 for the Federalists, via Jackson.

Secondly, the Federalists and then Whigs might have fallen from power, but their politically smarter successors the modern Republicans took up the mantle and became the dominant political party in the post-Reconstruction era, having learned from their predecessors errors.

And finally, it took over half a century, but Hamilton ended up winning out over Jefferson, as you yourself admit, after Reconstruction, in which banks and corporations ruled nearly supreme. There have certainly been Jeffersonian gains over the years, but it's been a long, slow and tough struggle, and we're still not there yet.

I say all this not with glee, as I'm no fan at all of what became of Hamilton's vision, and even that vision itself had some serious flaws. But my reading of him is that he envisioned a socially mobile and dynamic society based on the freeing up and modernization of financial markets and commercial enterprise, that valued and rewarded merit and hard work, not birth or background, that broke the hold on money and power by landed aristocrats that existed in his time and was represented by people like Jefferson.

That this system was usurped by greedy robber baron types is perhaps a testament to Hamilton's naivite (although he did anticipate such things and put in various checks to guard against them), or perhaps to the nature of capitalism itself. And, I will agree that in the first few decades of the 19th century, Jeffersonian democracy held back Hamiltonian Federalism somewhat. But it doesn't change the fact that in the end, his system won out over Jefferson's, helped along, however inadvertantly, by Jeffersonians like Jackson (who was no stranger to the lust for money, btw), who greately increased central and executive power.

I think that there was merit in both men's ideas, as well as some things not to like. I also think that Hamilton was more astute in his reading of where the country was headed, i.e. based on cities, commerce, industry and finance, not Jefferson's agrarian utopia, and tried to put the country on a path towards it that was sustainable and humane.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
"Great Men" and "Great Ideas" versus history (0.00 / 0)
Much like jurisprudence, originalism in historical ideas obscures more than it reveals.  

Hamilton and Jefferson would not have recognized the American state in its post-Civil War form, and attributing the rise of banking system to "Hamiltonian principles" is more teleological than historical.  Did the banking system become more "Hamiltonian" with the rise of the House of Morgan during WWI, and more "Hamiltonian" still with its fall during WWII?  

Where is there any explanatory payoff in holding Alexander Hamilton responsible for robber barons in the mid to late nineteenth century whose existence he not possibly have foreseen?  Thinking of Jefferson and Hamilton in these terms doesn't reveal anything about their ideas or the context which gave rise to them.  

Rather, by talking about Reconstruction as "Hamiltonian" or "Jeffersonian," you attribute the development and formation of our national economy to something immanent within the logic of the ideology of its founders.  Such a teleological account holds people in the late eighteenth century more responsible for the historical outcomes of the Civil War era and beyond than the people and institutions that made specific choices in response to specific social, political and economic circumstances.  

Moreover, that you say Jefferson was economically illiterate doesn't explain his deference to the opinions of Albert Gallatin, nor how Virginia, the most economically powerful state in the union, supported Jefferson with something approaching unanimity.  It also doesn't explain why Jefferson won by a landslide in 1804, expanding his appeal in nearly every state in the nation where he had barely eked out a victory in 1800.  

And the "imperial presidency" as understood by political scholars is not only merely a function of the office of the president, but the size and strength of the state over which it presides.  As such, calling Jackson an "imperial president" makes absolutely no sense.  The size of the federal government - regardless of what A. Schlesinger Jr. tries to argue in The Age of Jackson - was miniscule in comparison to the post Civil War era and microscopic compared to the post WWII period.  

One thing the liberal consensus school of historians did was to demythologize Jefferson as some sort of visionary "agrarian utopian."  Indeed, Jefferson believed in a national economy based on private property and economic growth and that banks and finance capital played a necessary, even indispensable role.  Check out Henry Adams' valedictory for the Republican party of the first party system in his magnificent History, or Richard Hofstadter's still useful portrait of Jefferson in The American Political Tradition for an introduction to Jefferson's political relevance in his own time and ours.    


[ Parent ]
I think you place too much faith (0.00 / 0)
in the notion that things happen on their own or at most as a function of their times and the people who directly shape them, and too little on historical forces, whether deliberate or not. There is a partial continuity, not linear of course, that can't be denied.

That the US economic and financial systems can be traced back to Hamilton's reign at Treasury is pretty much established. Obviously, they changed over the years, becoming different from and much more complex than what he created and envisioned. But the core institutions and principles that he instituted remained more or less intact.

E.g. a financial system based on a central, federally-controlled bank and regulated (to one extent or another) capital markets, an economy based on manufacture, trade and corporations, etc. Hardly concepts that Hamilton invented, but he was the person most responsible for their being implemented in the infant US.

And of course he could have predicted robber barons and other exploiters of this new economy. During his time as secretary the US experienced its first major speculative bubble and scandal, and he could see how government officials traded on inside knowledge to their benefit. He knew that the system that he was creating was ripe for abuse, and tried to implement safeguards against it.

At the same time, he realized that the alternative, not implementing these things, would have held the US back and been even less fair to Americans. I do not blame him for the later abuses. I merely claim that they were made possible by the economic and financial reforms that he put in place.

I don't claim that the founders set in motion an economic, political and legal system that its inheritors were utterly at the mercy of and could not modify or improve (or, also, make worse), and that historical forces did not themselves modify. That's not what I was saying. I was saying that, while these later factors were clearly at work, it was within the context and even confines of these initial systems, much as how we, as much as we've adapted it for ourselves, have a legal system that is based to a large extent on a centuries-old English common law system that far predated our constitution. Our economic system, as was the 19th century one, is at its core Hamilton's creation, expanded and modified extensively over the years, not Jefferson's, who hardly even had an economic system.

And the fact that Jefferson, his two Republican heirs, and then Jackson, dominated American politics from 1800 to 1836, does not alter the fact that, for better or worse, our economic system was gradually taking on a Hamiltonian character, i.e. urban, finance, manufacturing and trade-based, on a large and rapidly changing pace, and away from Jefferson's ideal of an agrarian-centered economy in which small farmers and businesspeople dominated and things developed slowly. That it took on an exploitative and inhuman character after Reconstruction is clearly unfortunate, and not, I believe, what Hamilton intended or would have wanted. But it was his reforms that made this all possible, not Jefferson.

I think that you're reading more teleological motives and observations into my words than I intended. Things happened as they happened, shaped to a large extent by contemporary forces and actors that none of the founders could have specifically envisioned, let alone caused to happen nearly 100 years prior. But they did set up the initial political, economic and legal systems that evolved over time and which we have inherited, and the way that these systems were initially structured clearly had some lasting and unavoidable impact over time. To argue otherwise seems to me to be absurd. Would you argue that Madison's constitution (and I realize that it wasn't just him, but he was the principal author) has not had a huge impact on US history, as modified as it was over time, and even considering all the other factors that affected this history? I'm hoping not.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
It's been nice talking with you and reading your ideas (0.00 / 0)
thanks for privilege, I look forward to reading what you have to say in the future.

[ Parent ]
Ouch (0.00 / 0)
Could I have that ding letter in triplicate?

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
Ha! I'm being sincere (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
I get paranoid sometimes I guess (0.00 / 0)
Your previous response didn't seem to have much use for my thoughts. :-)

Fwiw, I have a history degree, which combined with $1.55 + tax gets me a tall drip coffee at Starbucks. It has inspired a lifetime of interest in history, but I claim no expertise in it. And I've only started seriously studying the revolutionary era recently, so if I sound like I'm full of it, I probably am. Still, the back and forth is stimulating, and I find that it's easily the best way to learn things. And people tell me that my opinion is not always entirely without merit.

Cheers.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Not exactly (4.00 / 2)
Ross is misrepresenting right and left here, which was my point. There are intellectually coherent arguments against big government from the right (which I disagree with profoundly), but that's not what these teabaggers are about. They are hiding behind these arguments because they're too stupid, crazy and lazy to figure out what's really going on with health care reform. However, just about all supporters of HCR are left-leaning (or at most centrist), and they generally understand the intellectually coherent arguments for government-run health insurance and are not hiding behind it like some rabid crazies, as Ross was implying.

In this and just about every other contemporary issue, right does not equal left in intellectual honesty, tactics and motivation. Not even close. Today's most vocal conservatives are hardly conservative, but today's liberals are generally sincerely liberal.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Chris Matthews scrambling to save Obama Administration (0.00 / 0)
Just saw Chris on his Sunday show.  It was nearly unanimous that Obama should 1) scale back health care to get something through 2) focus on the economy 3) deficits still really scary.  4) His approval will continue to slide. And to quote Kathleen Parker roughly "Most folks think he is on TV too much."

Dems and Republicans have presided over a broken Medicare and Social Security program. Broken because they are UNFUNDED mandates. They have lied to the American people, put it off and ignored the problem. To quote the theologian  Rev Jeremiah Wright, "The Chickens have....come home...to roost."  The American people do not trust Congress.

Mace


[ Parent ]
It's a good thing Chris Matthews is on the job. (4.00 / 1)
He's like, really smart and stuff.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
It's Even Better When Lawrence O'Donnell Takes His Place (4.00 / 1)
He's like, not immediately reminiscent of one of Bart Simpson's friends.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Social Security isn't unfunded (0.00 / 0)
I really wish that people would stop lying about that. It's FULLY funded as is for at least the next 30 years, and likely well beyond that. That the government doesn't have the money to make good on its debt obligations to it right now and has to borrow to do so in no way makes social security involvent. The same can be said of the money that it owes to China and Japan. Does that make them insolvent too? That trust fund is sacrosanct, as has been every debt obligation in the country's history. Any administration that tries to renege on it is DOA.

Although, I agree that this show was atrocious (it's technically not a Sunday show, btw, airing initially on Saturday night in some areas, as it does here in Seattle). It was all about how ok, now that Obama's pleased his conscience with his progressive shtick, he's got to come back to realityland where us adults live and abandon all this reform nonsense and instead focus on cutting spending and not raising our taxes, and oh by the way how about reducing that budget while you're at it, just not at our expense, okay?

It's really quite surreal watching these villagers parrot each other's talking points, especially when they're so misrepresentative of actual reality. Austan Goolsbee was a lot more honest last week on The Daily Show when he said that right now, balancing the budget is not our biggest priority. Anyone saying otherwise either knows nothing of economics, or is a liar or fool. Of course, this is all talk. What really matters is what Obama & Dems actually do.

And as this morning's reports about how he's ok with only co-ops and no public show, La Grande Cave-In may already be a done deal and his tour the country dog and pony show just a way to fool the masses once again before it happens, a la FISA.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
Speaking of thoughtful liberals vs. crazy southern racist conservatives (0.00 / 0)
A caller weighed in on this on CSPAN today, somewhat hilariously:



"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


Centrism as the heart of darkness (4.00 / 4)
I've never quite gotten over our terrible struggle with the liberal suits in the Sixties, who still blame us for the destruction of the Democratic Party, and have absolutely no intention of ever letting the likes of us help to rebuild it.

The good news, I suppose, is that it's still considered impolite to blame Fanny Lou Hamer, or Martin Luther King for upsetting the liberal applecart. Blaming DFHs, though, remains forever in fashion. Swine like Rahm Emanuel take particular delight in it, and why wouldn't they? Without phantom menaces like us lurking in the darkness beyond the DCCC,  no one with the slightest commitment to sanity would ever accept the absolute inevitability of their domestic War of Assassins with the Republicans, or their worship, in the national temples of foreign policy, of American manifest destiny in its most decadent and violent forms.

Obama went to Washington apparently believing that once he took the reins, the body politic would magically heal itself. By now, there's no doubt that he's been disabused of that notion, and has been forced to acknowledge that the reins he's holding don't actually lead to the beasts pulling the juggernaut. Even if the Goldman Sachs takeover of the Treasury Department and the Federal Reserve didn't enlighten him, nor being contradicted in public by half the general officers in the army, I imagine that being called the Spanish equivalent of a nigger field hand by one of the thugs leading the Honduran coup must surely have done the trick.

You'd think that under the circumstances, the Democrats would finally welcome a little hippy advice. If so, I'm afraid that you'd be sadly mistaken.


[ Parent ]
There's Nothing Worse (4.00 / 1)
than someone saying "I told you so" when you have absolutely zero intention of ever changing even one iota.

That's why Rahm is so Rahm.  And why he's just so perfect for the part.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I fully understand why Obama would want (0.00 / 0)
to establish relations with the other side--or, more properly, with the forces of regression, oppression and destruction. You can't fight an enemy until you get to know them and have engaged with them. Holding out his hand was not, in itself, a bad thing. Following it up with a bear hug and cocktails in the WH was.

Assuming that he's not and hasn't always been a con man and that he started out with good intentions but bad strategies, I think that Obama's gotten trapped by his own brand of "Let's all be friends and see if we can't work something out that works for all of us" centrist, that was always foolish and even cowardly at best.

However, my reading of him is that he's too smart, and at this point experienced (those years as president of the HLR, community organizer and state senator surely taught him something about politics), to not have known at the outset that this was a fool's errand if taken at face value, and that what he was really doing, but perhaps lying to himself about to salve his conscience, was putting on a show for the base, that in the end would lead to the other side getting most of what it wanted. He gets to look and feel like he gave it his best, the other side wins, and we're left with next to nothing, yet again.

So much has been written about how the other side is Lucy to Obama's Charlie, exhorting Obama to not believe her when she promises that this time, she'll hold the ball. When in reality, it is Obama who is Lucy, and we're Charlie. That he's been able to sustain this charade so long is a testament to his political skills, albeit of the PR, and not substantive negotiating kind. The people who defend his alleged political brilliance by referring to his stunning electoral win miss the point entirely. Sure that proved his brilliance--at winning over the masses. It did not prove his brilliance at statesmanship.

As for suits vs. DFH's, it's clear who Obama prefers being with, even if a part of him (the community organizer) sympathizes with the other. In the end, like all suits, he just doesn't want to go all the way, because it means getting his hands dirty, his body all sweaty, and maybe drawing some blood. And it requires real conviction, which he lacks, and probably always has. Trying to find a middle ground is really just code talk for not having the heart for a real fight, which is what it takes to get such things passed.

I'm not quite yet ready to give up on him, though. Perhaps out of vanity and wishful thinking, but I suspect that he's about to find that his illusory middle path is about to bit him in the ass, politically. If he caves to AHIP and PhRMA and the GOP, he is political toast. And should be.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
You found this impressive why? (4.00 / 1)
Are the town hall protestors who attacked Arlen Spector's townhall or others in Washington, Michigan, upstate New York, etc. from the South?  Does the supposed fact that they all have bad teeth in some way elevate the discussion?

Yes, this caller rightly calls out Glenn Beck and Limbaugh, but what does her cultural elitism in attacking the appearance of the the protestors add to the mix other than making her and her choir of like-minded listeners feel good?

And of course, not all of CNN's audience is her choir.  Let's keep waving red flags in front of the bulls.  It feels soooooooo good.  (It helps to ease the pain of getting our asses kicked.)

It's an exquisite form of surrender, if you think about it.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
It's funny, and not entirely untrue, that's why (0.00 / 0)
Not every oppositional gesture need be a substantive let alone profound one. Some serve merely to keep up the fighting spirit and perhaps annoy the other side. Making fun of one's enemies by exaggerating (even if just barely) their flaws is a time-honored practice in war. And we're at war, in case you haven't noticed.

Yes, these people are stupid and crazy. Does pointing this out make one an elitist? Guilty! An overreading of PC, maybe? And while they're not all from the south, they're all inspired by the privileged white male ethos that originated in the south. Don't be so literal.

And yes, it does feel good. That you think that this is a bad thing is sad.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


[ Parent ]
The real Obama stands up (0.00 / 0)
Lead headline in USA Today online Sun August 16, 2009:

White House may drop public option

Anyone who is surprised by this really needs to go back to kindergarten. Obama never wanted the public option.

The majority for a public option are being marginalized,  by the supposedly dead Republican Party, which may lose elections but gets the legislation it wants.







Donate to Open Left




blog advertising is good for you
blog advertising is good for you
USER MENU

SEARCH

   

Advanced Search