Ron Paul's Procrustean Bed-His Libertarian Take on Health Care and Global Warming

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Dec 01, 2007 at 14:00


[Because folks are still being gulled by Ron Paul.]

In ancient Greek mythology, Procrustes (the stretcher) was a bandit from Attica who had an iron bed into which he fitted every passerby. If they were too tall, he would amputate their heads and/or feet, if too short, he would stretch them on the rack. Nobody ever fit, because the bed was secretly adjustable before hand. Ron Paul's libertarianism is just like Procrustes' bed: one size fits all.. or none.  Including, of course, the truth.

In my two-part diary "Ron Paul OPPOSSES Cutting Taxes-IF He Smells A Messican!" [ Part 1] [ Part 2], I went into excruciating detail about how Ron Paul fundamentally and repeatedly misrepresented the issue, abandoning his signature stance of opposing taxes because of his underlying nativism and racism. Usually, however, his nativism and racism are expressed through his narrow ideology, not by abandoning it, and thus they are kept in the background.  (He's a libertarian, and it's not his fault if destroying the Federal Government hurts people of color disproportionately.)  In this diary, I want to highlight two crystal-clear examples of a more pervasively prominent phenomena-how his ideology utterly warps his perception and presentation of fundamental problems for which he has no answers, because his ideology is utterly inadequate.

The two examples I'll use are two biggies: health care and global warming.  Neither one can be dealt with via libertarian means.  Indeed, the problems with both are direct results of market failure, made much, much worse by the dominance of knee-jerk rightwing ideology that rejects the very essence of what is needed to deal with them: effective Federal Government action to "promote the general welfare" just like it says in the Constitution.  This is the subtext of this diary: Far from being derived from or consistent with the Constitution, Ron Paul's rigid libertarianism is directly opposed to one of the Constittuion's core purposes.

Let the Procustean mayhem begin on the flip....

Paul Rosenberg :: Ron Paul's Procrustean Bed-His Libertarian Take on Health Care and Global Warming
Ron Paul On Health Care: The Crazy Uncle Can't Talk About S-CHIP

On September 30, 2007, with the debate over S-CHIP (the State Children's Health Insurance Program) in the air, Ron Paul decided to speak out in his weekly "Texas Straight Talk" column, published on his website.  The only problem for Paul is that-as with virtually all major spending programs-he is diametrically opposed to the majority of the American people. In fact, he is diametrically opposed to most conservatives.

For example, quoting from a diary I wrote in early 2006:

Since 1984-the first year all the relevant questions were asked in the GSS-a majority of extreme conservatives (self-identified 7 on a 1-7 scale) said we were spending too little on a combined measure (call it NatWelfComp) of whether people think we're spending too little, too much or about right on seven different areas-Social Security, welfare, "improving [the] nation's education system," "improving & protecting [the] environment," "improving & protecting [the] nations health," "improving the conditions of blacks," and "solving problems of big cities." The number of extreme conservatives who thought we were spending too little on one or more programs (net: i.e. "too little" on two, but "too much" on one is a net of "too little" on one) was nearly twice the number of extreme conservatives who thought we were spending too much: 59.3% to 30.7%. This can be seen in the last column of the chart below.

So, Ron Paul decided to do what crazy uncles always do in such situations: he decided to talk about something else.  In his column titled "Congressional Control of Health Care is Dangerous for Children", he barely even mentions S-CHIP at all.  And for very good reason. Not only is taking care of children's health enormously popular (people are funny that way-a baby cries, and all their libertarian principles go out the window), but S-CHIP has nothing to do with Congress controlling health care-it's the State Children's Health Insurance Program, stupid!

Ron Paul starts off well enough.  In the first paraghraph, he not only mentions S-CHIP, he spells out what it stands for:

This week Congress is again grasping for more control over the health of American children with the expansion of the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP).  Parents who think federally subsidized health care might be a good idea should be careful what they wish for.

With a strart like that-and the fact that Ron Paul is a life-long doctor-we can expect a detailed argument about S-CHIP, right?  Well, not so much...

Ron Paul:

Despite political rhetoric about a War on Drugs, federally-funded programs result in far more teenage drug use than the most successful pill pusher on the playground.  These pills are given out as a result of dubious universal mental health screening programs for school children, supposedly directed toward finding mental disorders or suicidal tendencies.  The use of antipsychotic medication in children has increased fivefold between 1995 and 2002.  More than 2.5 million children are now taking these medications, and many children are taking multiple drugs at one time.

Okay, look, as lifelong troublemaker, he's preaching to the choir here.  If they'd had all those little pills around when they had me in their clutches at the Moreland School District, they would have pumped me full of them quicker than you could say "Rumplestiltskin!"  But that was a local school district, and it had nothing to do with paying the bills if I actually got a real disease.  So could we please get back to the subject?

Ron Paul:

With universal mental health screening being implemented in schools, pharmaceutical companies stand to increase their customer base even more, and many parents are rightfully concerned.  Opponents of one such program called TeenScreen, claim it wrongly diagnoses children as much as 84% of the time, often incorrectly labeling them, resulting in the assigning of medications that can be very damaging.  While we are still awaiting evidence that there are benefits to mental health screening programs, evidence that these drugs actually cause violent psychotic episodes is mounting.

Right, like I said, I'm with you on this one, dude.  You don't have to go on aluding to unspecified evidence the way you do in virtually every column of yours I've ever read.  But could we get back to Congress? And health care? Please?

Ron Paul:

Many parents have very valid concerns about the drugs to which a child labeled as "suicidal" or "depressed," or even ADHD, could be subjected.  Of further concern is the subjectivity of diagnosis of mental health disorders.  The symptoms of ADHD are strikingly similar to indications that a child is gifted, and bored in an unchallenging classroom.  In fact, these programs, and many of the syndromes they attempt to screen for, are highly questionable.  Parents are wise to question them.

Right.  And one of the biggest questions is, "Why do we medicate kids who come from troubled backgrounds, rather than deal with the root causes of the problems in their lives?"  But you're opposed to spending money on any of those problems, too.  So could we please get back to Congress? And health care? Please?

Ron Paul:

As it stands now, parental consent is required for these screening programs, but in some cases mere passive consent is legal.  Passive consent is obtained when a parent receives a consent form and fails to object to the screening.  In other words, failure to reply is considered affirmative consent.  In fact, TeenScreen advocates incorporating their program into the curriculum as a way to by-pass any consent requirement.  These universal, or mandatory, screening programs being called for by TeenScreen and the New Freedom Commission on Mental Health should be resisted.

Speaking of ADHD, could we please get back to Congress? And health care? Please?

Ron Paul:

Consent must be express, written, voluntary and informed.  Programs that refuse to give parents this amount of respect, should not receive federal funding.  Moreover, parents should not be pressured into screening or drugging their children with the threat that not doing so constitutes child abuse or neglect.  My bill, The Parental Consent Act of 2007 is aimed at stopping federal funding of these programs.

It's also important to hug your kids.  But that won't help pay the bills when they have a burst appendix.  Now, could we please get back to Congress? And health care? Please?

Ron Paul:

We don't need a village, a bureaucrat, or the pharmaceutical industry raising our children.  That's what parents need to be doing.

That's it?  That's all that Ron Paul has to say about insuring millions of kids so that they can get health care in the richest country on Earth?

Well, of course it is!  Because libertarianism has nothing to say about providing health care.  It's all about freedom don'tcha know!  Freedom to die, as it just so happens. "These are the breaks," as Curtis Blow would say.

Ron Paul On Global Warming: The Crazy Uncle Does It Again!

Way back on December 15, 1997, Ron Paul devoted his "Texas Straight Talk" column to global warming, in an outing titled, "Kyoto treaty disregards science for a radical anti-American agenda: Environmentalism has become refuge for those opposing liberty and American goals".

In the course of this column, like the column above-purportedly about health care-he says nothing whatsoever about the actual problem at hand, except to obscure it. His sole concerns is to pound the table and accuse shadowy others of dark plans and evil intentions.  HP Lovecraft, your copyrights are being violated!

The column began:

In blatant disregard for the sovereignty of the United States, the well-being of American families, and even reasonable science, the Clinton administration last week sounded the trumpet blast of victory in signing on with an international treaty dealing with environmental issues.

As so often is the case with crazy uncles, the first thought is "who let him out of the attic?" "so many lies, so little time!"  Treaties are an expression of sovereignty (it's in the Constitution, "you could lool it up" as Yogi Bera would say), floods, forest fires, hurricanes and the like are not good for the well-being of American families, and there was zero peer-reviewed evidence against global warming-just as there is today-so Ron Paul's on a real roll here.

Ron Paul:

In Kyoto, Japan, delegates from more than 150 nations gathered to set new, international guidelines for reducing the so-called "greenhouse" gases. As one might imagine, the villain in the eyes of the participants were the "greedy Americans," and as such we will bear the brunt of the treaty's wrath, while communist China and the world's other oppressive regimes can pollute all they want.

Actually, the US was responsible for vastly more pollution than the developing world, and the only way to get them to believe that we weren't just trying to scam them was by taking the first steps on our own-those who have polluted the most in the past should take the lead in cutting back now.  Not a hard proposition to understand.  The Kyoto Protocols were clearly envisioned as just the first step, and it was universally understood (by people who understand anything, that is) that future steps would involve universal compliance.

Wikipedia explains:

Common but differentiated responsibility

The United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change agreed to a set of a "common but differentiated responsibilities." The parties agreed that

  1. The largest share of historical and current global emissions of greenhouse gases has originated in developed countries;
  2. Per capita emissions in developing countries are still relatively low;
  3. The share of global emissions originating in developing countries will grow to meet their social and development needs.[15]

In other words, China, India, and other developing countries were not included in any numerical limitation of the Kyoto Protocol because they were not the main contributors to the greenhouse gas emissions during the industrialization period that is believed to be causing today's climate change. However, even without the commitment to reduce according to the Kyoto target, developing countries do share the common responsibility that all countries have in reducing emissions.

Ron Paul:

Those on the radical environmental fringe, who organized this conference, have been using questionable "science" to raise the fear that some environmental collapse is just around the corner unless immediate, radical action is taken.

The "radical environmental fringe, who organized this conference" is better known as the United Nations. Ron Paul is convinced that the UN is run by the Bavarian Illuminati.  Others, who point out that the Bavarian Illuminati was disbanded in 1776, are not so sure.

Ron Paul:

We've only been able to accurately study the levels of atmospheric gases for some 25 years.

Actually, there are CO2 level records stretching back at least 650,000 years,  trapped in ice cores.  The data analyzed didn't go back quite that far in 1997, but it certainly went back more than 25 years.

Ron Paul:

To definitively claim today's weather patterns are the result of naturally-occurring cycles, or part of a long chain of natural events, or something man alone is creating, is unsound simply because more data is needed. In the respectable scientific community, there is considerable debate over how to interpret the global climate data.

This was certainly true in 1997 (it's not today), but it was totally irrelevent from a policy-making point of view.  When faced with a possibility of extreme danger, it is hardly prudent to wait for 100% proof that it is coming.  Scientists are extremely cautious in coming to conclusions, which is all to the good for the sake of establishing a foundation of certainty for policy-making.  But even a 10% chance of  100% catastrophe requires serious attention, and the evidence for global warming in 1997 was already well beyond 10%.

Ron Paul:

Therefore, urgings for radical action based on claims that the earth is about to boil are wrong-headed.

Nobody claimed that "the earth is about to boil."  Nor was Kyoto calling for "radical action." It was a sensible first step, and had we taken it at the time, we would be far ahead of where we find ourselves today.

Ron Paul:

In fact, all available evidence points to the contrary, that the temperatures are getting cooler, on average.

This is a flat-out lie.  As of 1997, the three hotest years on record were all from the 1990s. Only one year from the 1990s was cooler than the hottest year from the 1970s, and that year-1992-was cooler because the eruption of Mount Pinotubo spread high-level particles around the globe, which helped block the sun's heat.

Ron Paul:

To be fair, many in the environmental movement are honestly concerned about man's impact on our land, air and water, and are sincere in wanting only to do what is right. At a basic level, we all should be concerned about those things.

When the vast majority of the American people care about something, it's not a good idea to accuse all of them of being Satan's spawn.

Ron Paul:

But sadly many in the movement are more guided by a complete, unabashed hatred of free-markets, capitalism and the American way of life, as well as a complete disregard for the well-being of their fellow man.

And Ron Paul's proof is...?  (Damn, where's J. Edgar Hoover when you really need him?  Or, better yet, Joe McCarthy?)

Ron Paul:

Using the shrill scare-line of impending natural disaster, the world's opponents to liberty have become the world's radical environmentalists… And the leaders of the international environmental movement.

Again, paging Senator McCarthy! Paging Senator McCarthy!

Ron Paul:

So while science is at best uncertain about "evidence" for eminent global environmental disaster, the radical fringe has not let facts stand in their way.

Just like the radical fringe firefighters who respond to fire alarms without actually seeing the flames for themselves until they arrive on the scene.

Ron Paul:

And so we have the Kyoto treaty as a result; after all, no political leader wants to be seen as "anti-clean air," no matter what the science says about the provability of the environmentalists' claims.

Again, simple concept: if there's a chance of something really bad happening, and the longer you wait, the worse things will get, then it's only common sense to take steps before you are certain. 

Do I really have to explain this principle to a doctor?

Ron Paul:

Under the terms of this treaty, the US would be required to make big cuts in emissions over the next 15 years, while Communist China - the world's biggest polluter - is not required to do a thing, nor are the hundreds of other polluting Third-World nations.

Again, the principle of the worst, and most established polluters going first in making pollution cuts was a practical necessity as a first step, in order to convince the rest of the world that we weren't trying to change the rules and slam the door of development in their faces.

Ron Paul's claim that China was "the world's biggest polluter" was simply 100% false.  At the time, China was predicted to attain that status by 2020, but it subsequently acheived dramatic reductions in greenhouse gases, even though not required by treaty-quite unlike the US.

The New York Times reported in June, 2001:

China Said to Sharply Reduce Emissions of Carbon Dioxide
By ERIK ECKHOLM
Published: June 15, 2001

In the debate on global climate change it has long been a given that China, with its huge population and endless coal reserves, would overtake the United States early this century as the biggest source of the atmospheric pollution that scientists believe is warming the planet.

That specter of runaway Chinese emissions has been cited by President Bush as a major reason for describing as ''fatally flawed'' the 1997 Kyoto agreement to protect the climate. The treaty exempts developing countries, including China, from its initial, binding limits on the output of carbon dioxide and other so-called greenhouse gases that scientists believe are causing traumatic changes in the climate.

But treaty obligation or not, China has already achieved a dramatic slowing in its emissions of carbon dioxide in the last decade, Chinese and Western energy experts say. That record of progress has pushed further into the horizon the day that China will surpass the United States as the lead culprit, and it is something that Mr. Bush seems to have overlooked in his harsh appraisal.

Chinese officials insist that their country will do its fair share to combat a serious global threat.

''We already have one of the world's best records in improving energy efficiency,'' Zhou Dadi, director of the Energy Research Institute of the central government's State Development Planning Commission, said in an interview.

''Our challenge is this: Can we give people an acceptable lifestyle and also address the problem of climate change?'' Mr. Zhou said.

''As an energy expert, I think we need a demonstration from a developed country to prove that a high living standard can be associated with lower carbon emissions,'' he said. ''Then China will follow that example or even do better.''

In the most surprising development, China's annual output of carbon dioxide in the last four years of rapid economic growth has actually declined, according to data compiled by the United States Department of Energy. While the numbers could be overstated because of flaws in both economic and energy statistics, some experts think, China does seem to have achieved a stunning if temporary reversal of the usual trend during economic expansion.

''China's emissions of carbon dioxide have shrunk by 17 percent since the mid-1990's,'' according to an April report from researchers at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in California. ''Remarkably, over the same period, G.D.P. grew by 36 percent.''

''Even without undertaking binding commitments under an international agreement,'' the researchers concluded, China ''has nevertheless contributed substantially to reducing growth in global emissions.''

This achievement has been a welcome side effect of China's shift to market prices for fuels, including an end to coal subsidies, and its programs to encourage energy conservation and fight urban air pollution, mainly by curbing the burning of coal.

Only a few years ago, many studies projected that China would emerge as the world's leading source of carbon dioxide by 2020, but these recent developments appear to have put off that day by years or even decades.

In short, it's hard to imagine how Ron Paul could possibly be more wrong on the facts.  But never fear!  He'll find a way. I promise!

Ron Paul:

This treaty will wreck havoc on the US economy if it becomes law. This will force many industries to close their doors here and move to China (or a similar nation) to escape the new regulations, throwing thousands of Americans out of work.

The same way China's economy was destroyed in the late 1990s, right?  Because Americans are so much stupider and less innovative than the Chinese, right?

Ron Paul:

Further, limiting the use of coal, gas and related sources will increase energy prices not only for businesses, but the individual consumer as well. So not only will many families be tossed into unemployment lines by these environmental radicals, but many more people will face a reduced standard of living just to heat their homes.

Because diversifying energy sources can't possibly reduce prices.  When have new energy sources ever increased productivity and reduced costs?  Such wild-eyed promises have been proven wrong over and over again, ever since the invention of fire.... Oh, wait...

Ron Paul:

Also suffering under this treaty will be the sovereignty of the US and the agriculture industry. Under the still-sketchy terms of the treaty, the US will cede some control over the day-to-day policy and regulations of the American rice growers and cattle ranchers to United Nations bureaucrats.

Ron Paul just loves him some images of the Bavarian Illuminati directing our every move.  But as per usual, he's just making stuff up.  Under the treaty, different countries develop their own means of implementation.

Ron Paul:

Why rice and cattle? Because rice paddies and livestock produce methane gas, which the radical environmentalists claim will destroy the planet. I hope this is not lost on anyone; the biggest threat to the planet apparently are not man-made chemicals, but rice and cows.

How stupid can a person get and not turn into a vegetable?  Just because something contributes to a problem does not make it "the biggest threat."

And this guy is a doctor?

Ron Paul:

Further, under terms of the treaty, military action would have to be significantly curtailed. While I am a staunch opponent of policing the world, it is unreasonable that the US government would be prevented from moving troops because of the terms of an "environmental" treaty. Of course, the treaty does exempt military maneuvers which are officially sanctioned by the UN high command.

This is just about the point where the family decides that crazy uncle is no longer a family problem, but that outside professional help is needed.

Ron Paul:

Perhaps the bottom-line of this treaty is not that polluting is bad, or that we are facing a massive environmental threat. The bottom-line, apparently, is that Americans are bad, and that the notions of free-markets, individual liberty and capitalism are a threat to the radical agenda of the international liberal-left.

This sort of throws a whole new light on his tirades against anti-psychotic meds, now doesn't it?

Ron Paul:

The treaty makes it clear that anyone can pollute, as long as they are an oppressive regime, a communist dictatorship, or have the approval of the international bureaucrats, though perhaps that is redundant.

Yes, uncle.  The nice men with the butterfly nets are here to take you to the parade!

Ron Paul:

Providing for a clean environment is a noble and laudable goal, but this treaty is not about protecting natural resources. This treaty is bad science, bad economics and bad domestic policy. This treaty is nothing more than anti-Americanism masquerading as environmentalism, and it must be stopped.

That's it folks!  Ron Paul's answer to global warming: it's all a Commie/Bavarian Illuminati plot!

Conclusion

Moral: If it's a problem, libertarianism can fix it.  If libertarianism can't fix it, it's not a problem!

Procrustes would be so proud!


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Paul on Health Care and Global Warming (0.00 / 0)
You should read a much more current and fair article about Ron Paul's views for dealing with the environment. http://www.salon.com...

This article actually discusses what policies Ron Paul believes will help our environment through libertarian principles.

On his Health Care article I believe his thesis is, "Parents who think federally subsidized health care might be a good idea should be careful what they wish for." The reason why he introduces the S-Chip is because there have been votes to increase the amount of influence the federal government is involved. Ron Paul is against the federal government and third parties getting in the middle of the negotiations between doctors and patients. Health Care should be dealt with by the patient and doctor. Parents should raise their own children without intervention from the federal government.

You also write "...but S-CHIP has nothing to do with Congress controlling health care-it's the State Children's Health Insurance Program, stupid!". This is like saying the Patriot Act is very patriotic because of its title. If the program is to be controlled by the states then why are they going to Congress to get it expanded? Congress should have no control over this program if it is truly just a states program. Wikipedia writes "Like Medicaid, SCHIP is a partnership between federal and state governments. The programs are run by the individual states according to requirements set by the federal Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services."

The reason why people 300% above the poverty level cannot afford health insurance is because it is too expensive to provide for these small businesses, and even bigger businesses because of the subsidies caused by the federal government. This is why an increasing number of people are uninsured or under-insured, even with the implementation of programs like SCHIP.

Here is Ron Paul's view about federal government intervention on health care, which I think could apply for SCHIP as well:

"Few people realize that Congress forced Health Maintenance Organizations (HMOs) on us. HMOs rose to prominence through federal legislation, incentives, and coercion.

Regulations from D.C. make it virtually impossible for small business owners to cover their employees. The unemployed often cannot afford insurance, meaning those who need basic medical attention overcrowd emergency rooms and drive up premiums.

The federal government will not suddenly become efficient managers if universal health care is instituted. Government health care only means long waiting periods, lack of choice, poor quality, and frustration. Many Canadians, fed up with socialized medicine, come to the U.S. in order to obtain care. Socialized medicine will not magically work here.

Health care should not be left up to HMOs, big drug companies, and government bureaucrats.

It is time to take back our health care. This is why I support:

  * Making all medical expenses tax deductible.
  * Eliminating federal regulations that discourage small businesses from providing coverage.
  * Giving doctors the freedom to collectively negotiate with insurance companies and drive down the cost of medical care.
  * Making every American eligible for a Health Savings Account (HSA), and removing the requirement that individuals must obtain a high-deductible insurance policy before opening an HSA.
  * Reform licensure requirements so that pharmacists and nurses can perform some basic functions to increase access to care and lower costs.

By removing federal regulations, encouraging competition, and presenting real choices, we can make our health care system the envy of the world once again." http://www.ronpaul20...


Let's Get Real! (0.00 / 0)
So, your position is to ignore his past lies and deception, because he has much more recent ones.

Fair enough.  Let's run with that for a little, shall we?

Ron Paul is still in denial about global warming, according to the very article you link to:

[Salon:] What's your take on global warming? Is it a serious problem and one that's human-caused?

I think some of it is related to human activities, but I don't think there's a conclusion yet. There's a lot of evidence on both sides of that argument. If you study the history, we've had a lot of climate changes. We've had hot spells and cold spells. They come and go. If there are weather changes, we're not going to be very good at regulating the weather.

To assume we have to close down everything in this country and in the world because there's a fear that we're going to have this global warming and that we're going to be swallowed up by the oceans, I think that's extreme. I don't buy into that. Yet, I think it's a worthy discussion.

Three points:

(1) There may have been "a debate" ten years ago, but it was primarily over what degree of certainty we had.  The only debate now is over the degree of human causation, which everyone pretty much agrees will only grow over time.  Thus, the uncertainly that exists has no impact whatsoever on the question of (a) whether humans are causing some significant fraction of observed global warming, and (b) whether there's a need for urgent action in response.

(2) The question is not about geing good at "regulating the weather," which is not only vague and grandiose sounding, but also confuses a fundamental difference between climate and weather, all of which adds up to a lackadaisical carelessness--if not cluelessness on his part.

The real question is about regulating carbon and other greenhouse gas emissions.  But Ron Paul is against regulation, just on principle. so he doesn't want to talk about that. 

(3)  Nobody's saying "we have to close down everything in this country and in the world," and to suggest they are is simply engaging in fear-mongering and straw man arguments at the same time.

It's precisely what you'd expect from a libertarian kook.  And it's precisely what you get from Ron Paul.  Duh!

As for health care, every other advanced industrial nation does a better job than we do by a factor of at least two.  So Ron Paul wants to tweak our broken system in a more libertarian direction, with zero empirical evidence that it will improve anything.

As with global warming, it's precisely what you'd expect from a libertarian kook.

Meanwhile, nothing I wrote in my original post has been refuted.  Or even addressed.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You Must be Joking (0.00 / 0)
"nothing I wrote in my original post has been refuted."

You are obviously responding to the specific comment you are replying to.  I think I pointed out that your claim that China isn't a major producer of CO2 is in fact refuted.


[ Parent ]
Again, Two Lies Do Not Make One Truth (0.00 / 0)
I never claimed that China wasn't a major producer of CO2. Paul claimed that it was "the world's biggest polluter"--in 1997.  And that was most certainly a lie.

Claiming that you have refuted a claim I never made is another lie.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Here is Your Claim (0.00 / 0)
"At the time, China was predicted to attain that status by 2020, but it subsequently acheived dramatic reductions in greenhouse gases, even though not required by treaty-quite unlike the US."

This is what I was questioning:

"it subsequently achieved dramatic reductions in greenhouse gases."

I found this hard to believe.

I offered a link that countered your point.

I'm asking if China really has achieved dramatic reductions or if that's just something their government is trying to claim.

I apologize if you wanted a fight over Ron Paul, I know he's the topic of your diary but he's tangential to my interests.


[ Parent ]
Hmmm.... You Lie About Ron Paul And Then Say He's Tangential To Your Interests (0.00 / 0)
And your handle is "PaulicyWank," no less.

This does not compute.

Furthermore, if you really were concerned about China's levels of greenhouse gas emissions, a few seconds of Googling around would quickly turn up this:

While China's total greenhouse gas emissions were only 42 percent of the U.S. level in 2001, they had soared to an estimated 97 percent of the American level by 2006.

So, there was no contradiction between what I wrote about 2001 and what's happening in 2006/2007 after all. 

Pretty simple, really.  While voluntary efforts can make brief but impressive gains in the right circumstances, you need an enforceable policy framework to ensure continuous, longterm improvement.  We failed to take leadership in the 1990s, when China's emissions were still significantly less than ours, and it was a relatively cheap move for us to commit ourselves to reductions that would have created a moral imperative for China to follow suit.

Instead, we blew it, following the mind-numbingly stupid and short-sighted logic endorsed by Ron Paul.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
My Name is Paul (0.00 / 0)
I like policy.  I'm a bit of a nerd.

So China made gains in 2001, but in the last five years or so those gains have been reversed.

I disagree with you that we could have done anything that would have forced China to follow suit.  I don't think dictatorships respond well to moral imperatives.


[ Parent ]
Take A Look At What Mia Farrow Is Doing To China On Darfur (0.00 / 0)
As shown on a recent episode of Frontline, one person can do quite a lot to influence China.

In contrast to Mia Farrow, the US is not only the world's only superpower, but also China's largest trading partner--by far.  The notion that we are powerless to influence China is absurd--and the notion that we were powerless ten years ago is even more absurd.

The one thing we lacked was moral authority, and we threw that away.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Is this real enough? (0.00 / 0)
I am not saying we should ignore anything. I just think that this article from salon gives a much more diverse and well-balanced views of what Ron Paul thinks about global warming and the various governments' roles in global warming more so than the article you posted which was basically just about the Kyoto Protocol from ten years ago. In the same light I thought your decision of articles for health care and your analysis of it was a bit inadequate to describe Ron Paul's views on these two issues.

Also what is wrong with the answer Ron Paul gave? In the 1970s I heard there were discussions that we were going into an ice age. So perhaps the climate changes more frequently than we realize. It is not true that all scientists say that humans are the main cause for global warming. I believe this is still being debated. And he straight forwardly said that he is willing to hear more discussions about research about this topic. It is not as if he is ignoring it completely. He is just not Al Gore about it.

But you are right, Ron Paul is against regulation at a federal level. Like he said in this article he thinks property rights, local governments (such as Pittsburgh in one of his examples), and state governments can do the regulation and be much more effective at it than the federal government.

Ron Paul is an example of how people should be towards the environment. I attended the Tonight Show when he was a guest, and unlike these Democrats who talk big about conservation and not driving SUVs but travel by them anyway; Ron Paul showed up in a filled mini-van. Like he says he rides his bicycle he is an avid runner and all that. He enjoys the Earth and the environment as much if not more than even you may. He is not driving around and campaigning and showing up in debates in huge SUVs (didn't Obama and/or Edwards have two of them one that included body guards and such?).

As for health care, there is one example of how privatized health services are far better than the socialized medicine that has grown by large quantities in this country. If you look at laser eye surgery over the last few years, you would see that the quality has become very highly improved where as the price has actually decreased. Pretty much the rest of health care has seen prices inflate tremendously. There are so many regulations on health-care in this country, primarily from the federal government that obviously fewer people are going to be able to afford the huge prices. In this sense I am not surprised when I read that people prefer S-CHIP services compared to the private ones that may be available. It is like the farming subsidies and the wasted food that the government buys to take off the market to raise prices on the consumers. The only difference is that the government does not sell this product, which at its real value would disrupt the market and make the government a monopoly, as we may be seeing in health care insurance and coverage including with SCHIP.

This is a quote from wikipedia

"In a 2007 analysis by the Congressional Budget Office, researchers determined that "for every 100 children who gain coverage as a result of SCHIP, there is a corresponding reduction in private coverage of between 25 and 50 children." The CBO speculates this is because the state programs offer better benefits at lower cost to enrollees than the private alternatives.[9] A Cato Institute briefing paper estimated the "crowding out" of private insurers by the public program could be as much as 60%.[10]"

Perhaps we should go towards less regulation to help make the prices cheaper so insurance can be more reasonable in price before the whole country is trying to get health care through our incredibly in-debt nation, where doctors will more likely strike and patients are more at risk to dying waiting to get medical help.


[ Parent ]
So Many Lies, So Little Time (0.00 / 0)
I am not saying we should ignore anything. I just think that this article from salon gives a much more diverse and well-balanced views of what Ron Paul thinks about global warming and the various governments' roles in global warming more so than the article you posted which was basically just about the Kyoto Protocol from ten years ago.

First off, if you read Ron Paul's answers carefully, you will see that he basically hasn't changed more than a smidgen since writing the piece I analyzed.  He's still lying about what the science is, he's still ignoring the basic logic of public policy, which says that you act early to avoid foreseeable risks, even if they aren't 100% certain, and he's still opposed to treaty action, which is the only conceivable means for dealing with global environmental problems.

Second, the test of a would-be President should be leadership.  Ten years ago, the US had a golden opportunity for leadership on global warming.  And Ron Paul was against taking leadership when it counted most.  That's why his position ten years ago is so relevant today.

Of course, it's telling that even running for President 10 years later he can't come up with anything better.  It just goes to show how woefully inadequate his ideology is.  But his views 10 years ago demonstrate how automatically incapable he is of grasping the issues that confront us today.

Also what is wrong with the answer Ron Paul gave?

Re-read my article.

In the 1970s I heard there were discussions that we were going into an ice age.

There were some news stories speculating about it, but there were no scientific projections.  (There were more news stories about Uri Geller, if memory serves.) And the reason for that is well-understood--in the early part of this century the impact of particulate pollution in the atmosphere blocking out incoming sunlight more than offset the impact of global warming gasses.  But the particulates fall out of the atmosphere at a much faster rate, so the balance was already changing in the 1970s, at the time those articles appeared.

So perhaps the climate changes more frequently than we realize.

Weather changes frequently. Climate, by definition, does not.  It generally fluxuates slowly, over the course of centuries, and undergoes major changes only on the order of tens of thousands of years.  The mixed impact of human emissions over the middle decades of the last century was just one stage in the larger process of climate change that humans are now causing, and it is producing more radical changes than anything seen in human history.

It is not true that all scientists say that humans are the main cause for global warming. I believe this is still being debated.

It's not true that all scientists say HIV virus causes AIDs, either.  But the debate on that is over in the peer-reviewed journals.  And the same goes for the existence of man-made global warming, which has never really been doubted for a long time--though just when it would clearly emerge as the dominant factor was less clear. (And, for policy purposes, far less important.) There are one or two exceptions that so-called "skeptics" have dug up--compared to dozens of false alarms--but they are extremely weak. The editor of the journal that one of them was published in said later that it was a mistake to have published it, because of flaws that were onverlooked at the time.

The simple fact is that there never really was a debate in the peer reviewed literature.  HIstorian of science Naomi Oreskes did a literature review back in 2004--published in Science magazine, and found no examples of papers questioning human-caused global warming between 1993 and 2003.  There was considerable uncertainty about the magnitude, and whether it was detectable yet, and that shifted over time as more data became available, but existence of the basic mechanism has not been seriously doubted in the field since well before Kyoto.

And he straight forwardly said that he is willing to hear more discussions about research about this topic.

Which is what the tobacco industry said for decades, while they were killing their customers as fast as they could addict new ones.

It is not as if he is ignoring it completely. He is just not Al Gore about it.

He's not ignoring it in the sense that he gets asked questions about it, and he responds.  But he certainly is ignoring it, in the sense that he has no intention of doing anything effective about it.

The rest of the lies in Clif25's comment are left as an exercise for the reader.

p.s.  The foundations of laser science and technology were overwhelmingly a product of government funded research.  So even if your example proved what you think it does, it still wouldn't prove what you think it does.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
China (0.00 / 0)
"Ron Paul's claim that China was "the world's biggest polluter" was simply 100% false.  At the time, China was predicted to attain that status by 2020, but it subsequently acheived dramatic reductions in greenhouse gases, even though not required by treaty-quite unlike the US."

You cite a news story from 2001.

But I've seen more recent news stories that place China as number one for CO2 emissions:

http://www.news.com/...


He Still Lied (0.00 / 0)
Even giving him every benefit of the doubt.

Furthermore, even if the story you link to were accurate--and it's by no means certain that this estimate is accurate --the US would still be far ahead of China on a per capita basis.

But this misses the fundamental point: The Kyoto round was supposed to be a first step.  Had we committed to it then, and done our part, we would already be negotiating for China to be included, and we would be in a very strong moral position to do so.

Thus, the fact that China may be getting worse much sooner than expected is the exact opposite of a vindication of Ron Paul's position.  It is an outright demonstration of his folly.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Which Is It? (0.00 / 0)
I'm more curious as to China and CO2 emissions.  Have they made major gains or have they not made major gains in cutting their emissions?

Ron Paul said that it was folly to have the US cut CO2 emissions while letting China go free because China was still a major producer of CO2.  China is Your point that Kyoto is just a first step doesn't refute the reasons that Ron Paul opposed Kyoto.  You're just trying to find something that is a good step forward, while Ron Paul seems to be allowing perfect to be the enemy of the good.


[ Parent ]
Two Lies Do Not Make A Truth (0.00 / 0)
Ron Paul said that it was folly to have the US cut CO2 emissions while letting China go free because China was still a major producer of CO2.  China is

Lie #1 is yours: Ron Paul didn't say that China was still a major producer of CO2.  He said it was "the world's biggest polluter."

Lie #2 is Ron Paul's: China wasn't "the world's biggest polluter."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
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