On Allies

by: Chris Bowers

Sat Dec 20, 2008 at 00:15


Last June, Matt and I left MyDD, in order to start a new website. Mike Lux was, and still is, one of the three partners in that venture. Mike currently isn't blogging much, as he is working in the Obama transition as the progressive liaison:

Veteran Democratic official Mike Lux has been tapped by Barack Obama to serve as an adviser and progressive liaison during the transition period, the Huffington Post has learned.

Lux, who worked on the Clinton administration transition efforts in 1992, confirmed the hiring but, citing a need for clearance, declined to offer further information.

Mike is excellent at liaison work, possibly the best person in Democratic politics, even. He did this as senior staff in the Clinton White House back when he was my age, and now he is doing it for the Obama transition. His insight, his commitment to progressive politics, and his ability to bring people together are why Matt and I were eager to partner with him, and I'm sure why he earned a senior job in the Obama transition. In the meantime, while Mike is on assignment, Matt and I are working on a variety of projects. This includes, as I mentioned yesterday, a broad and still growing effort to systematically hold anti-progressive Democrats accountable:

This road map is clear. On Sunday, in D.C., I attended a meeting of several netroots and other innovative progressive organizations to discuss this and other ideas for progressive accountability work (the meeting itself was off the record, but that the meeting took place was not).

It is kind of surprising, in the midst of all this, to be told:

Chris, Matt, this is why you have no allies: Because you throw them all away.

We don't have any allies? We have thrown them all away? Really? Certainly doesn't seem like it to me. Even leaving our coalition projects and connections to the Obama transition aside, our traffic isn't even that bad. While we are not (and never have been) at the level of several more prominent websites, even before the media frenzy surrounding a couple recycled comments of mine hit, we have maintained an inordinately large share of our pre-election audience. Further, let me just say that as a bearded, hoody-wearing guy who lives in a one-bedroom apartment in West Philly with my fiancé, I am perpetually amazed that I am able to have any political influence at all and perpetually afraid I will lose it. As such, I do what I can to not throw away any allies in the political world.  I even have connections at Third Way and the DLC, because there are some people there I actually like talking with.

More in the extended entry.

Chris Bowers :: On Allies
I've tried to develop a thick skin over the years as a writer, although there are moments when it breaks down. Atrios encapsulated those moments pretty well in a recent post:

Anyway, after years and years of blogging I've developed a pretty thick skin, as I assume Chris has, but the one thing which tends to gnaw at me is when people make bad faith accusations, assuming that everything I'm writing about or not writing about is part of some grand strategy to get an administration job, or become a Real Live Tevee pundit, or some other weird motive which never makes any sense to me. If those were my goals I'd use the word 'fuck' a lot less.

Hear hear. I really hate it, and have never developed a thick skin, for the times when I am accused of having an ulterior motive. I do my best to not only make a difference in politics, but to be open and honest in my thoughts and actions. So, when people who claim to be on the left think that they have some special insight into the inner workings of my brain, it pisses me off. To paraphrase a favorite sarcastic line of my soon to be sister in law: "You don't know me. Why are you talking about me like you know me?"

In the above quote, the post of mine that Atrios was referring to was a recent article where I argued that Michael Tomasky was wrong in a recent column of his. Specifically, I argued Tomasky was wrong for calling people who disagreed with Obama's personnel moves "idiots," because there probably wasn't a single personnel move in Obama's entire transition where his own top advisors held a unanimous opinion. It is foolish to think that criticism of Obama's personnel moves only exists outside of the Obama transition team. That is, quite simply, an absurd belief. Obama has not surrounded himself with mindless automatons. He has, instead, surrounded himself with people who will, invariably, disagree about things like who should be Secretary of Agriculture.

Over the past month, it has been frustrating, to say the least, to be caricatured as a friendless, ally-less, lone progressive who is unceasingly howling in anguish about Obama's cabinet picks. Not only has my writing on the subject been quite mixed, and not only is there undoubtedly internal dissent within the Obama transition on every single pick he has made and for every single reason I gave, but somehow this has happened to me despite being the only blogger I know of who is business partners with a senior member of Obama's transition. Caricatures like these, as with all stereotypes, make it easier for people to dismiss legitimate ideas with which they disagree. In the end, you get a psychological diagnosis of perpetual misanthropy:

This, I think, is the problem: The left does not know how to win. It is a completely foreign feeling to us. We do not know what we'd do if we ever caught the roadrunner. Similarly, the idea of allies are foreign to us. We don't know how to work with allies; we've never had anything but enemies. Allies are not things that work with you toward a common goal. Allies are those things that stab you in the back.

What allies are we not working with? Despite our somewhat meager results, I still think Open Left has done a decent job at working on an inside and an outside strategy, both of which require a broad range of allies. Is there some organization or group in particular with whom we have cut off ties that we should have made more of an effort to engage? I am more than open to hearing someone provide examples, and then I am happy to sit down with that group if I have not already done so. And even beyond specific groups, have we at Open Left made any arguments that were not made, at least behind closed doors, by a minority of the relevant decision makers within the Obama transition team itself? I seriously doubt it, but again I am open to hearing examples.

In case you hadn't already realized the proximate cause of this post, I never received any emails about mcc's banning. I'm not saying he didn't send one to someone at Open Left, as he claims to have done in his post, but he never sent me one. It still surprises me that someone claims to have just remarkable insight into my brain, even though s/he never listed a single ally I have apparently thrown away, a single election I was upset to have won, or a single argument that I have made that never came up within the Obama transition team itself.

Anyway, I am going to continue my work at progressive accountability, and I will try to do a better job of bringing more people into the fold. After all, if there is one thing I learned over the past six weeks, it is that we need more people willing to do such work.  And I will try to be as open and honest about it as ever, just like I am in this post and the other articles I wrote today. As a final note, when it comes to progressive accountability work during 2009-2010, one of my major worries is that now even the progressive grassroots will dismiss such work as either vague whining, or simply as a representative of a psychological dementia that can't stand either winning or having allies. Right now, a significant percentage of the progressive grassroots, I would estimate about 20%, is willing to drop progressive accountability work altogether if Obama asks them to do so. See, for example, the surprisingly large amount of blogosphere support for keeping Lieberman as Homeland Security chair, once Obama made his preference on the matter known. Right now, Obama dominates Democratic opinion, both at the leadership and grassroots levels. As such, it will be extremely difficult to engage in successful progressive accountability work that he publicly opposes.

And btw, if you get banned and you think it was wrong, send me an email. I have reversed several of my own bannings in the past. What I need to know is if someone is actually interested in participating in our community, rather than just ridiculing it by, say, handing out troll ratings unnecessarily. We have a mission here at Open Left, and I am not going to put up with commenters who are actively opposed to what we are trying to accomplish. If you think that what I am doing here is simply an act of left-wing psychological dementia that can't stand either victory or other people, then please, move along and find another blog. However, if you want to participate, and you think the banning was wrong, then send me an email and make your case. While I ban a lot of people, I have reversed about half of the bannings when people personally email me. After all, if you send me an email, rather than just creating another account, it shows that you actually care about the community and are interested in doing more than undermining it.  I love it when people want to help, because most of the time I feel wholly inadequate at engineering change. Allies are useful, necessary and a lot of fun. No matter what some people think or say, and despite my very serious failings at inter-personal communication, I still work to cultivate them.


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On Allies | 58 comments
Thanks (4.00 / 11)
for the kind words, Chris.

Thanks for clarifying Chris, but... (4.00 / 9)
...this post still doesn't explain why mcc got banned. Even the post you linked to with the unnecessary troll rating contained a retraction statement from mcc.

I understand that it's frustrating to be seen as some sort of loony fringe by other members of Left Blogistan and/or the MSM. Nonetheless, venting that frustration on your commentors does not improve this perception - quite the opposite. It reinforces this stereotype. I don't agree with a lot of mcc's points, and I think he/she was a bit of a pain at times, but banning someone for expressing a legitimate viewpoint doesn't seem in keeping with the goals of this site.  


Yeah, you are probably right (4.00 / 11)
And I just reversed the banning.

It felt a lot better to say all of this before changing it, though. It is pretty annoying to be talked about as a perverse caricature that utterly conflicts with the facts of the matter.

There ain't no communication departments separating us on this medium. Without those, you would see a lot of politicians act this way, too. People aren't abstractions, even if being treated like one can sometimes cause you to act like one. Not that it justifies the action, but that it at least explains it.

I'm still going to ban a lot of people, though. Always have. That isn't going to change. It's why I think we have longer, more insightful comments than we otherwise would.


[ Parent ]
Hello, (4.00 / 1)
Thank you for the gesture.

For whatever it's worth, I was somewhat surprised to learn that the "allies" comment was what upset you guys about my previous post-- "you have no allies" was an attempt to be flippant but was not specifically intended as an insult or even an attempt to make a judgement; I thought I was describing the world as you saw it given how you have seemed to be describing in recent posts, well, basically everyone in the world. (And yes, I was aware of Lux's position on the transition team.) If I had clearly understood the reasons for the banning I likely would not have made the TPM post.

On that note, if it's okay for me to say this...

Over the past month, it has been frustrating, to say the least, to be caricatured as a friendless, ally-less, lone progressive who is unceasingly howling in anguish about Obama's cabinet picks.

I'm sure it is, but to be quite honest, my reaction is, well, it seems like this caricature of you is the conclusion that someone who started reading this site immediately after the election would have come to, just based on your own words and those of the other writers on this site over that period. (I had a similar reaction to the post at this link.) I do not think this caricature is consistent with what I know of you and/or Matt, because I've been reading your work for much longer than that, but without that context it would be harder to tell. This is not even to say even that the things you've been printing over this period have been too extreme or anguished or whatever; just that they, their intent and purpose, have not been clear, at least in this one reader's estimation. This has made conclusions like that caricature you describe maybe sometimes easy to jump to. Even what have seemed like very intentionally conspicuous attempts to praise Obama when he does something right haven't left your message seeming "mixed" so much as just confused-- you lay out some kind of "my position is more nuanced than this, really, here's what it is" but then the nuance seems to evaporate in the next post so it's hard to know exactly how seriously to take the other post.

Basically, in my reading you guys just have just not been doing a very good job in the last few weeks communicating a coherent position, either individually or as an editorial group. That isn't meant as an insult, it's just my personal take-away as one random reader of this site. And really any frustration or unreasonableness in my recent posts and/or actions here have stemmed from this, that I read this site because the front pagers have really quality commentary and in my opinion the most recent block of it hasn't really lived up to that quality level (even quite aside from any question of, say, whether I agree with it).

I will try to do a better job of bringing more people into the fold.

I am glad to hear this.

In case you hadn't already realized the proximate cause of this post, I never received any emails about mcc's banning. I'm not saying he didn't send one to someone at Open Left, as he claims to have done in his post, but he never sent me one.

For the record, shortly after the banning I sent an email to Matt asking for clarification. Since the post that seemed to be the cause of the banning was in response to a Matt post, I assumed this was the procedure to follow.  


[ Parent ]
Chris, I'm glad you've unbanned mcc... (4.00 / 4)
but I personally think your comments about Obama's cabinet picks have been nuanced and acute--just the kind of thought-provoking commentary I have come to depend on from you. Please continue to do what you do. I think your writing is better than ever.

My holiday wish, though, is that the front-pagers try to be more tolerant of even ill-considered criticism. We all get such criticism in our lives, and it may even do us some good. It keeps us from feeling monarchical.


[ Parent ]
Agreed (4.00 / 1)
Chris has definitely been more constructive in his criticisms and much more reasoned than some others. Agree with your last point as well.

[ Parent ]
amen (4.00 / 6)
"Further, let me just say that as a bearded, hoody-wearing guy who lives in a one-bedroom apartment in West Philly with my fiancé, I am perpetually amazed that I am able to have any political influence at all and perpetually afraid I will lose it."

i hear ya brother. keep it up, from one bearded dude to another.

the funk can move and the funk can remove- dig?


lose the fear of losing it (4.00 / 2)
Just do what you do best and let the chips fall. You haven't come this far on a fluke.

Hold on loosely. At least, that's how my dad told me to grip the racket when he taught me how to play tennis... of course, I wrecked one racket that way, serving on a hot summer day when the thing followed the ball out of my hand and into the clay surface -- but that was once, and it was a crappy racket anyway.


[ Parent ]
Yea! (0.00 / 0)
Hang loose! as blogo guy says.

[ Parent ]
You're right about everything in this post (4.00 / 10)
But you still shouldn't have banned them.  You've worked hard to get where you are, but that doesn't give you the right to piss on people who are vocal about disagreeing with you.  If you want a blog to be more than just an echo chamber, you have to tolerate dissent that isn't respectful.  Mcc shouldn't have to "care about the community" in order to be able to post comments here -- that's a perversion of the blog idea into some sort of club or association.  The very reason that blogs are better than clubs or associations is that they can cater to people who don't have a stake in their development.

You're a lone voice in the wilderness right now, and that's a damn hard thing to be.  I get that; I've done it myself more than once.  But that doesn't give you carte blanche to take out your frustrations on lowly commenters by banning them and then reconsidering your decisions later.  If you aren't sure you want someone banned, don't ban them.  I've seen too many good blogs go bad by banning critical commenters.  I spent seven months fighting this very sentiment on Daily Kos, and I lost that battle.  But I'd like to think you're better than this, because you are the very best and most insightful Democratic blogger I've read over the past five years (with Matt also in the top five).  This, however, is a really bad call on your part.

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future


Have to agree (4.00 / 4)
I think a core part of being a progressive is allowing and listening to dissent, even when it's disrespectful. Beyond policy differences I like to think that's what separates us from the right.

Spot on Nonpartisan.

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


[ Parent ]
That goes both ways too... (4.00 / 1)
We have to understand that politicians that we champion will not always do things that we agree with. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't speak up about it but there has to be a level of outrage to match the level of the crime.

If we become outraged at every little thing that Obama or somebody else does that we don't like then we lose power and will just be disregarded as the whiner who whines at everything. We have our own political capital that we need to be smart with, in the same way a politician does.


[ Parent ]
I agree with everything (4.00 / 2)
in Nonpartisan's comment, speaking as someone who's been banned, then unbanned, by Bowers.

Banning commenters violates the spirt of the sphere: it's very un-blog. I've altered my previous view, which was that no one should ever be banned. I now think it should be reserved for the most extreme cases, the kind of commenter whose departure would elicit a collective sigh of relief.



[ Parent ]
Completely disagree. (4.00 / 4)
Open Left isn't meant to just be an online political forum where anyone can spew whatever nonsense they like. I'm sure a lot of the good commenters here would leave if it came to that. Discussions on Open Left are generally meant to be productive. Those commenters who consistently hurt the productivity of the community should be banned. I don't see why Open Left should be worried about your ideas of some overriding "blog philosophy". A lot of legitimate blogs don't allow comments at all. They are still blogs.

The theory here is that commenters are free and welcome to disagree and express their disagreement, but they have to be interested in being a productive member of the Open Left community. That isn't very radical. Most large blogs have similar rules to some degree.  

The truth about John McCain.


[ Parent ]
yep (4.00 / 1)
good moderation makes good discussion, good discussion makes a good blog.

always, always it is surprising how people feel like they have rights on this blog or any amateur blog. This blog is a gift, free political opinion 7 days a week.

When Open Left turns pro and has real power to set political agendas like the MSM, it will be justified to demand fairness. Until then, well Chris said it best, If you think that what I am doing here is simply an act of left-wing psychological dementia that can't stand either victory or other people, then please, move along and find another blog.  


[ Parent ]
long long long metaposts (0.00 / 0)
Are really kind of beside the point. As far as I can tell, you were hurt by mcc's post on TPM, when you should have just let things slide. Somehow people got angry at each other, there was some GBCW, and that's it?

In the end, the internet generates conflict among people who actually agree, or, at least, want to work together and generally like each other.  In my own work, I increasingly turn off e-mail and make phone calls -- it ratchets down potential conflict by a huge amount.

The very nature of the blogosphere means this can't happen. You invent stopgaps and various ways to try to make it work, but until you turn to one-on-one contact, the sources of those conflicts (anonymity, ASCII instead of physical presence, &c.) are going to remain.

Blogs and "the internet" basically are (A) a source of information and point-of-view, and (B) a gateway to actually getting involved, as they say, "IRL", in real life, and face-to-face. For better, or for worse, that's all they're worth!


We can't just let everything slide. (4.00 / 7)
I don't post here much, but I read here a lot.  

Chris, keep up the questioning and keep up planning how to get our voices heard.

There's rather a concerted effort at several forums to keep questioning to a minimum by making the one doing it appear to be at fault. Even ridicule is used a lot.

You are a good and sincere voice for our side.  Don't let them stop you.


[ Parent ]
Now this I disagree with (4.00 / 2)
Meta can be an important way of dealing with problems and then moving on from them, particularly if it's not overused -- which it certainly isn't by Chris and Matt.  I applaud Chris for posting this, I just disagree with his call on the banning.

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future

[ Parent ]
it is all good (4.00 / 5)
My opinion is that you and Open Left in general play very well with others. For example, the Open Response thing is overly generous.

And even though you are doing the important work of holding Obama accountable, it appears Mike is still reading.


Chris, (4.00 / 6)
As a long time reader going back years at MyDD and very occasional poster here, someone more in sympathy with, than a part of, the OpenLeft community, the only real "fault" I can see is you occasionally let your passion overwhelm your reason. We should all have that as our biggest 'sin.' Chris, just keep pushing and prodding and extending your hand to anyone/everyone willing to help move us in the right direction.

Keep the faith,

Steve

Health care reform = Employer payroll savings = More hiring and more jobs!


Allies & Influence (4.00 / 7)
Let me start by saying that I've been reading Chris and Matt since their earlier days at MyDD and I followed right away over here to OpenLeft in the summer of 2007.  I think that Chris and Matt are both really good analysts and strategists, and general thinkers of progressive politics.  OpenLeft is always the second site I read in my run-through of websites (after perusing the insider-y state politics non-blog for Wisconsin).  

To that end, I think we should consider "allies" in a broader way.  While allies amongst elites are important in a project like building a viable progressive movement, there is also the influence of writing on a good, insightful blog.  In this, Chris and Matt have an influence of, well, (potentially) influential readers.  The impact goes far beyond what they write here, as it structures an important part of the general and blogospheric conversation about politics and progressive strategy.

All of us are allies, especially those that take what's written here and turn it into action.  I myself am a something of a (smalishly) influential activist in my state and in my community.  And what I read here at OpenLeft has a big impact on how I approach my own political work.  Those of us reading this blog are and should be the next generation (not necessarily in terms of age) of progressive leaders.  And in that Chris and Matt are writing things we take to heart and integrate into our consciousness of political strategy, they are building allies beyond those elites that currently operate.

I personally think that OpenLeft is a great site and I really appreciate the work Chris and Matt do here as writers and beyond.  

So keep up the good work fellas.  You have more allies than you can count (from among this readership, and beyond), and please don't let the people who want to pick fights and despoil that which is OpenLeft get you down.  


Err... (0.00 / 0)
Not to sound like a jerk in my first comment, but is this really necessary, guys?

I mean, this is the Internet version of someone calling another kid mean, and the other kid saying "Nuh uh YOU'RE mean" to all his friends in a different part of the school yard. This is neither mature nor necessary.


do you live (0.00 / 0)
on Drury Lane?

[ Parent ]
As a newbie here (4.00 / 4)
I have really appreciated the site and the work that you and others here are doing.  It's a good place to pick up some uncommon points and, considering that Obama is set to be one very powerful force, I think you make courageous critiques that shouldn't be left out of the mix.  Obviously, there are lots of people nervous about factions and fractures developing when there are so many issues confronting this administration.  The rifts will happen, but, hopefully, bridges will be built to span them.    

Thank you for doing what you are doing.
 


The problem is... (4.00 / 4)
is that this site has become Sirota Central since the election.

Chris you're one of the best bloggers in the sphere. So don't get too down on yourself.

Personally I've been coming here since it started and always thought you were one of the most reasonable responsible bloggers during the primaries (when tempers would flare other places). Lately I've been coming here less and less because a lot of posts seem to have gotten stuck in the weeds. Can't see the forest for the trees type thing.

I don't have a problem when someone has a beef with Obama. I have a problem with arrogance and self promotion. That would be Sirota. When you make a post challenging a choice Obama has made I can respect it because I know you've been nothing but honest from the start. I don't see you as having something to gain from being abrasive. I can't say that for others.

My 2 cents.


I like Sirota (4.00 / 4)
But I don't see why you can't just ignore his posts if you disagree with them.  I mean, I understand if people stop coming to a site because the preponderance of the front page is taken up with stuff they hate.  But Sirota's just one of many people who post here.  So long as you like the others, why not just ignore Sirota and focus on what you value?

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future

[ Parent ]
I like Sirota too ... (0.00 / 0)
that doesn't mean I don't disagree with him sometimes .. like his recent post about there not being much of a credit crisis .. even Bonddad over at the Great Orange Satan disabused that notion today .. there was/is a credit crisis .. the real problem is how to respond to it .. and so far .. Dubya and Congressional Democrats have done an awful job responding to it

[ Parent ]
Sirota is greatly respected by many of us. (4.00 / 8)
I hate to see someone who researches a lot and is a fount of good progressive ideas dissed here.

That's a shame.

There is too much of this going on around the blogs right now.  People are trying to undermine many who are coming up with the real ideas for change.


[ Parent ]
I agree (0.00 / 0)
Self promotion and arrogance are what we call politics.  And I've started liking him more since the election since I think he knows how to celebrate a victory.

I don't really agree with him on everything.  As a software engineer any sort of overly protectionist leanings would probably hurt more than help in my opinion.  But I think he shows a strong understanding of how politics works.

http://transgendermom.blogspot....


[ Parent ]
Nothing wrong with self-promotion... (4.00 / 2)
The problem with David Sirota is he dismisses any and all criticism directed towards him and uses personal attacks against those who criticize him. In a way it sort of undermines his self-promotion because he turns so many people off.

The insights that David has to share are valuable and often I enjoy his posts. I just wish he'd stop behaving like his opinion is the only opinion that's valid and anyone who disagrees with him suffers from "Dear Leaderism."


[ Parent ]
Banning for comment (4.00 / 3)
Strange to see someone banned for a comment I replied to largely in agreement.  I suspect I'll someday get upset enough to say something band-worthingly stupid.  I hope not, though, because through all the disagreements and frustrations, I do think Matt, Chris, Paul and sometimes even David do a really good job here overall.

But note that we are going to see a lot more of this over the next four years; and hopefully longer.  It is easy for us all to agree when Bush is in office.  It is only natural that a Democrat will divide our opinions more.

The front pagers write with a great deal of passion and emotion.  Usually, this serves them well.  But when you disagree with them, it is hard not to respond with similar emotion.


Honestly, (4.00 / 1)
I wish you would not spend so much emotional energy worrying about what others say about you.

Look, take a stand based on what you think and stick by it. If you are going to be critical of Obama, you will be called ugly names, and your motives will be cast in the most sinister light by his die hard defenders. Ad hominem is always the argument of choice in politics generally and in the blogosphere specifically. You won't ever be able to stop this by any kind of plea you may utter or any kind of excuse you may offer. If you criticize Obama, you will be attacked, period. It's night following the day.

If you wish to speak your candid, independent opinion, but also want a friend in the blogosphere, buy a dog and give him Internet privileges.


It's human nature in a person who is innately kind. (4.00 / 3)
That's just the way it is.  People like that care what others say.  

[ Parent ]
friend? or ally? (4.00 / 1)
I took him to be concerned about his efforts to build a large and effective coalition. To do that, you have to persuade people that your are in the right and have a good plan that they would do well to join.

There is no getting around having to dialog with people and try to work through disagreements, if coalition-building is your goal.

One of the things that struck me here at OpenLeft is how much disrespect they tolerate. At most moderated forum sites, insulting the hosts is a major major no-no.  But here, we've been reading for weeks about how dissent is not tolerated here. If that were true, how is it we've been reading about it so much?



[ Parent ]
mcc has a long history (0.00 / 0)
of heckler post and I doubt it was just the one cited that provoked the banning.  I myself don't see how that contributes anything to discussion, however I don't believe in permanent banning on semitroll posters either, that is why I dislike kos.  I would ban mcc for like a week though.

[ Parent ]
moderation is a necessary evil (4.00 / 6)
I used to participate in un-moderated newsgroups, and I saw them all devolve into endless scorched-earth flamewars (I witnessed my first in 1982).

Moderation is a big overhead, especially human moderation. People who open a salon because they like dialog don't enjoy the idea of having to hire bouncers. Moderation has developed because the alternative wasn't working.

There are a variety of tools in the moderator's kit, and they produce different effects.  A timeout is good tool; a timeout with a dialog between the offender and the host is a very good tool.

One of the side-effects of moderation is a lot of talk about the moderation. It's as American as the manager kicking dirt at the umpire.

I'd just like more acknowledgment that this is a very lightly moderated site, with lots of dissent and outright rudeness tolerated. The hosts talking back to critics, even angrily, is the opposite of shutting down dissent.

Banning a participant is rare here. I doubt it is done lightly, given the behavior we've all seen that hasn't led to banning.


[ Parent ]
While you have a point (0.00 / 0)
in making the distinction between building a coalition via allies and having friends, I think that the real, deep problem with the blogosphere is the lack of strong, genuinely independent voices, not any inability to build coalitions.

In fact, building a coalition is simply too easy in the blogosphere: in virtually no region of discourse is conformity more strictly compelled than in the blogosphere, and its method of enforcement is a massive aggregation of personal attacks. The problem is that only one coalition and one underlying point of view is actually countenanced.

What is nearly impossible in the blogosphere is the development of genuinely independent voices and points of view. Ironically, for all of its criticisms of the MSM as being stuck on "narratives" from insiders, it is only far more conformist than the MSM in the ideas it will tolerate.

In the end, what the blogosphere desperately needs most of all is something resembling an independent voice: someone who will not be cowed by the hordes -- slathering hordes, I should say -- of blogosphere zealots coming with pitchfork in hand to defend the honor of their chosen leader. Without these independent voices, a new coalition based on their ideas and their take on the truth is not going to be possible.

While I certainly didn't agree with him on every point, Paul Krugman serves as a good example of an independent voice in the past election. He had, I'm sure, little interest in leading a coalition per se; he was simply speaking his mind. If a coalition were to build around his ideas, that would be a secondary phenomenon; but the first, required act would be for some number of people independently to come pretty much to the same highly unpopular point of view, and to voice it against the crowd. (We are now, of course, seeing some of Krugman's serious concerns about Obama's playing with Republican talking points as being borne out in Obama's approach to governance.)

Where in the blogosphere could one find a prominent voice as strong and as independent as Krugman's? Nowhere. Perhaps if the blogosphere were populated by enough individuals with an ability to hold against the massive onslaught of attacks, the Obama camp might have been pushed to adopt explicitly more progressive stands and to stick to them simply in order to keep their own supporters in line when they most needed them.

Someone must play that seminal role in the blogosphere, or nothing good will come about. Instead, personality and mob enforcement will rule absolutely.


[ Parent ]
You shouldn't worry so much. (4.00 / 3)
If someone is disruptive, get rid of them.

Also people need to get over troll ratings.  There is no Autoban in the Soapblox platform, all bans are administrative.

Troll ratings help you identify disruptive people, otherwise they mean nothing at all.


Lux (4.00 / 5)
Congrats.  If you take anything from the commentary on the blog to others on the team, let them know that "reaching across the aisle" will not feel safe in particular instances for some people.  Back in the early 90s, we used the concept of a "safe space."  Warren's presence erodes this security and makes glbt people feel vulnerable.  His opposition to same-sex marriage alone does not threaten too much, but the fact that he opposes it using the most pernicious stereotypes of gay people (equating our relationships with pedophilia, polygamy and incest).

Obama to GLBT Community: Embrace Uncle Good-But-Homophobic


I think part of the problem (insomuch as there is a problem) is identity (0.00 / 0)
What is the purpose of progressive blogs, what is the identity that these blogs seek to assume?

Right now sites like this try to be multiple things. there's many different things to balance, there's the "these are my thoughts take them or leave it" aspect of blogging, then there is the institutional aspect of being a political organization. Because in all reality this isn't just a blog, it's an organization with political goals.

BUT, it isn't an interest group with loads of money and votes, it isn't a policy think tank, and it isn't an activist wing of the democratic party. There is no powerbase here. So guys like Chris or Matt gets relegated to "sit down and shut the fuck up" status by Obama's base and the democrat party in general.

The solution is to decide once and for all whether you want to be inside the tent or outside it. If you're inside, then accept why people wouldn't like what you have to say and learn what you have to do to matter to these people. If you're outside, then don't talk about what bus you're under or who has betrayed who.


Trouble is Obama (4.00 / 1)
says the purpose of his team of rivals is that he wants to here alternative view points, and he wants to hear from people who "disagree with him!"  Maybe his supporters need to decide whether Obama was bullshitting us or not?

[ Parent ]
Am I the only one sappy enough to go straight for the important part here? (4.00 / 6)
Congratulations! Obviously Natasha is scanning magazines for frilly dresses as we speak, or I'd wish her congratulations too!

Wouldn't that be funny if (0.00 / 0)
their kids grew up to be republicans.

[ Parent ]
Becoming Republicans (4.00 / 1)
My wife and I became "Republicans" when our daughter turned thirteen so she could rebel against us.  Fortunately, it only took about ten weeks to work.

Chris, keep up the great work.  I read here 2-3 times a day but rarely comment.  You, Matt, and Paul are what keeps me going online.


[ Parent ]
Thank you! (4.00 / 1)
I'm v torn about the frilly dress question. I've been thinking about getting a nice suit that I might have occasion to wear more than once. We're also thinking about having an outdoor ceremony in a chilly part of the year and a dress large enough to cover climate sensible underthings is going to be either way overpriced or poorly tailored.

[ Parent ]
Speaking of Weddings and Taxes (0.00 / 0)
I suspect that there are lot of OpenLeft readers who might be tempted to toss an extra $15 or so into this site's collection plate as a wedding gift, but those gifts would likely be treated as taxable income.  If, on the other hand, you registered at some suitably green online vendors, all our little wedding gifts would be tax deductible to you and Chris.  Just a thought.

Best wishes to both of you.


[ Parent ]
ooooh (0.00 / 0)
a really sharp suit w/a matching long jacket would look awesome - and would probably still be less expensive then a frilly wedding dress.  Plus you could use it professionally whenever you were on a mission to kick political ass.

My advice is, just make sure you have a big class o' wine if you decide to look through wedding magazines for an outfit.....they gave me the heebee jeebees.


[ Parent ]
Chris (& Co.), keep doing what you're doing... (4.00 / 2)
And you'll have plenty of allies in the reality-based community.

The late unpleasantness has, alas, shown that the Left has its own problems with truthiness and Der Leader-ism, so it's a little smaller community than the one founded on simply recognizing that GWB was the worst president ever.

People will try to wear you down into S-ing The F Up. I hope you never will.


As an admin at a state blog on your list of state blogs (0.00 / 0)
I believe that I (we) have an ally relationship with you. It's a pretty informal one though and even at the informal level it's a very weak relationship.
Is there some organization or group in particular with whom we have cut off ties that we should have made more of an effort to engage? I am more than open to hearing someone provide examples, and then I am happy to sit down with that group if I have not already done so.
I don't know if that shoe fits those of us on the state blog list. And it's a potential bi-directional shoe anyway. But it sprang to mind as I read the quote so I'm passing it on as a comment.


Jeff Wegerson - Prairie State Blue

As a longtime reader (4.00 / 2)
and not much of a commenter I have to say, I've been coming back less and less and when I do I leave with a bad taste in my mouth. It's not so much about the constant critisim of Obama's every single move, it's more about the tone of those criticism.

You are complaining about people attributing sinister motives to your criticism but many times you and other front pagers attribute sinister motives to Obama. It's like not picking a certain person is a betrayal of this group or picking another person is a betrayal of that principle and so on. Wether the word betrayal is actually in the post is not important because most of the times it is implied.

For me, it is just disagreement on objectives and on governing style. When the criticism is so emotionally frought (like the brouhaha over Warren) people lose sight of the whole picture and we actually start fracturing.

I think it was you who pointed out in an earlier post (correct me if I am wrong) that the most important factor in the success of the Obama administration is wether he can successfully get some major things done in the first two years.

Now, that means that the best way to push progressive change is to ensure that the major projects (economy, Iraq, healthcare) he tries to push through will succeed.

There's this misconception among some progressives that the biggest change will come from appointing the most progressive candidates to a post. Undoubtedly, having progressives in the cabinet will help push a progressive agenda. But, and that is a huge but, that is not the only factor in wether the administration will be successful. You have to consider personality - wether you can actually work with someone. You have to consider politics - wether you can garner broad based support for your agenda.

How many posts did you guys write on the whole Rick Warren thing? I don't like his choice but I understand that he is trying to include a large segment of the population who feel alienated from him. If some of those people become a little bit more acccepting than it is good for him and it is good for us. To think that a prayer is a betrayal of the whole GLBT community is totally unreasonable. Afterall, he is considering appointing an openly gay guy to be Navy secretary in first time in history.

His great labor pick merited one front page post. His superb science team is not mentioned yet (as of the time of my comment). Just the science team will have major consequences for our future. Much more significant than a largely symbolic prayer that everyone will forget about in 5 minutes in the euphoria of the inauguration. And here you guys are trying to concoct ways of ruining that experiance. It should be the largest celebration this county has ever seen and it should be associated with the election of a progressive president. A president that hopefully can drag the whole country with him.

So my growing apart from this community is not because of the criticism in general but because of my feeling that Openleft lost its direction somehow and many front pagers think that criticism and accountability projects are the only way to push a progressive agenda. Where's the pushback against the right wing? Where is the pushback against the RNC when they desperately try to link Obama with Blago? Where is Openleft actually acting like an ally?


Wise words (0.00 / 1)
Let's see if they get you banned! Just kidding.

I want to echo one point you made and put it in a different way. It's quite right that if progressives want to see their issues turn into policies, the best thing they can do is to carry Obama. But this does not preclude whining about Obama. In fact, when dKos or this blog whines about Obama, they may be doing their part to help him succeed.

Progressive bloggers are not very smart about policy, and if they ever were in charge of anything, it would implode. This is because they have a personal and financial interest in mirroring the (often retarded) views of their clickers. I'm not saying they do this cynically. They may believe that Direct Democracy kool aid. The don't see the irony in the fact that direct democracy produces crap like Prop 8. Their solution is to push for a direct democracy of a more exclusionary sort: A direct democracy of whoemver clicks around on their websites. But why would a policy produced in that fashion be worth anything more than the knejerk consensus of your standard pitchftork-wielding mob? It's not, and everyone "outside" of the blogosphere sees that and giggles.

And that bogo-myopia makes the "progressive blogs" a great validator for Obama. Pissing off bloggers makes everyone else realize that he's sane!


[ Parent ]
Well, that goes too far for me. (0.00 / 0)
I don't accuse the progressive bloggers (or at least some of them) or any of the front pagers of this particular site of anything more than being misguided and shortsighted.

I started reading Openleft because of good analysis and great number crunching before the election. I just feel that they lost their direction since the election. It's missing a unifying goal or objective. Maybe they think it is to push the Obama administration to be more progressive. I think it should be to push the country as a whole to a more progressive direction. It seems lost on many progressives though that these two objectives are not the same. The latter one involves much more pushback against the right, the MSM, shaping public opinion and having Obama's back. It also involves constructive criticism of the Obama administration. But let's have our priorities in order and let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Well, that's just my 2 cents.


[ Parent ]
I think you underestimate the moral error Obama has made (0.00 / 0)
He's inserted a purveyor of heterosexual privilege, a facilitator of discrimination and hatred, into the heart of the inauguration.

This is not a small deal. This is compromising with evil--making the tent so big that it includes what we most oppose. Just because we care about the issues Obama campaigned on does not mean we should minimize how troubling this invitation is. It is a blot on the present moment that will only magnify as time goes by.

If Open Left didn't speak out on this issue, it wouldn't exist.


[ Parent ]
I understand where you are coming from (0.00 / 0)
and I agree with much of it, though I really don't think it will be such a significant moment in the whole event. I am an atheist so for me the whole prayer thing is just wierd and a reminder of how atheists are treated in this society.  And I am not saying that Openleft shlouldn't talk about it. I just want to see the big picture. And I find it lacking here.  

[ Parent ]
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. (0.00 / 0)
But I think this invitation is going to look worse and worse with every passing month, as full equality for gay people becomes as consensual as it now is for African Americans and women. No one who justified, explained away, or minimized the significance of Warren's place in the inauguration is going to feel very happy with that position in years to come.

[ Parent ]
General supportive meta (0.00 / 0)
I am impressed that the Rick Warren discussion so far has been relatively civil. I could read all of the comments without tearing my hair out. I was absolutely scared to read the comments on any Rick Warren post on FDL, but evidently it got very vehement. This civility is because of the atmosphere that Matt and Chris want to put here. Even if Matt has not liked Obama since day one, the commenters seem able to maneuver around this.  

"Here's a song about blind faith. That's always a dangerous thing, whether it's in your girlfriend--or if it's in your government." Bruce Springsteen, quoted in Glory Days (Born in the USA tour??)  

It's My Party.... (4.00 / 2)
My response to the MM flap over at TPM:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c...


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