Should Our Movement Accept Without Question What Politicians Say Is - And Isn't - Progressive?

by: David Sirota

Tue Jan 27, 2009 at 11:30


Fivethirtyeight's Nate Silver, whose statistical analyses I respect greatly, has been essentially making the case that because lots of Progressive Caucus members in the Congress voted for the Wall Street bailout, a vote for the Wall Street bailout was, therefore, a vote for the progressive agenda.* That's not his whole argument, but that's the basic thrust, and it's forwards an elegantly self-fulfilling kind of circular logic: Whatever the Progressive Caucus does is the progressive position, period - regardless of the underlying substance of the legislation being voted on.

This, of course, leaves you with the same unsatisfied feeling you have when you look up a word in the dictionary, only to find that the dictionary defines the word using the same word. And more troublingly, it cloaks a powerful and condescending kind of government authoritarianism in seemingly rational empiricism. It suggests that if, by rudimentary arithmetic, a majority of a certain set of government officials votes one way, then that way is The Only Way that a principled grassroots movement must follow, because we are too stupid and too powerless to be able to judge things on our own.

Coming from someone as smart as Silver, such vapid reasoning is just downright silly.

David Sirota :: Should Our Movement Accept Without Question What Politicians Say Is - And Isn't - Progressive?
The fact is, members of Congress - even Progressive Caucus members - are moved by a whole set of pressures and forces (campaign contributions, desire to get elected, aspirations of moving up the party leadership, etc.) that shift their votes and  have nothing to do with the progressive agenda. Not surprisingly, those distorting pressures and forces tend to be most acute when it comes to bills like the Wall Street bailout that explicitly deal with money and corporate power.

Likewise,  many Progressive Caucus members call themselves progressive because of their positions only on certain issues - some of which that have nothing to do with economic issues. As just one example, if you are a congressperson representing a liberal district but want to raise lots of corporate cash, it's easy to join the Progressive Caucus based on your pro-choice positions on abortion, while also voting for Wall Street bailouts and corporate-written trade agreements. This means, though, that the caucus's overall votes on those economic issues - issues that some caucus members don't define themselves as progressive on - can't be cited as scientifically representative of the progressive movement as a whole. When the Progressive Caucus's majority votes for something all it means is that the Progressive Caucus's majority voted for something - nothing more, nothing less. Sure, it's one metric that may perhaps have something to do with a bill's substantive progressivism - but it's one metric among scores of metrics, and it's not even close to the 100% scientific proof of progressivism that Silver portrays it as.

Silver is certainly right that just because one person says a position is "progressive" doesn't make it so. But that's the same principle for a set of legislators. Just because they votes one way doesn't mean that vote is automatically the progressive position, either. And what Silver seems to miss is that not everything can be boiled down to numbers and congressional votes (I know, a tough truism to swallow if you are a mathematician) - and that there can be pretty clear consensus on what is - and is not - a progressive position, based not on one voice, but on a movement's collective voice.

So, for instance, when it comes to the bailout - it wasn't just me or OpenLeft advocating against it. It was organized labor, consumer groups, progressive economists/activists like Naomi Klein, Dean Baker and Robert Reich, and millions of self-described liberal/progressive Americans who told pollsters they were opposed to the bailout, just to name a few.

And more importantly, on the merits, a vote to continue giving Wall Street billions of dollars of taxpayer money in an unregulated and non-transparent fashion while simultaneously underfunding health care and education is just not in line with anything the progressive movement has ever advocated in its history. Additionally, nobody has made any kind of substantive argument that the bailout is "progressive" in any way - not even Obama, and even more notably to this argument, not even Nate Silver himself. The closest bailout proponents have come is in their arguments that the bailout is necessary - but nobody has stood up and said it represents progressive ideals. Why? My guess is because even bailout proponents know it clearly doesn't represent progressive ideals - not even close.

Because a bill gets lots of Republican or Blue Dog support doesn't mean its automatically conservative in nature, and because a bill gets lots of Progressive Caucus support doesn't mean its automatically progressive in nature. Why? Because those pressures and forces that have nothing to do with ideology often play decisive roles in congressional votes. Yes, progressives should certainly look with initial suspicion at bills that Republicans support - and yes, progressives should certainly be a bit more inclined to initially assume good things about bills the Progressive Caucus supports. But upon deeper substantive review of specific bills, it's obvious you can't make sweeping ideological generalizations based ONLY on those metrics, especially when that particular metric is subject to so many other distorting forces and impulses.

Indeed, in the Bush age, we've seen Republicans destroy the conservative brand by following the logic Silver seems to support. Rather than stick to verifiably conservative principles like limited government and balanced budgets, Republicans in Congress and the White House exponentially grew government through the Pentagon and Homeland Security department and created record-setting deficits in the process. When they tried to slap the "conservative" label on these moves - when they effectively tried to equate GOP party loyalty to ideological conservatism - they destroyed the very meaning of the conservative brand, and therefore undermined not just their electoral majorities in Washington, but the entire conservative movement as a whole.

Now, sure - we can follow Silver's path and do the same thing. We can take every vote that a certain set of Democrats cast and slap the label "progressive" on those votes, regardless of the underlying policy, regardless of where consensus is in the major institutions and voices in the grassroots progressive movement, and regardless of the agend the progressive movement has been fighting for for generations. But I think that's a huge mistake, not just because Republicans have shown us how politically perilous that is, but because it effectively says we, as a movement, must take orders from politicians, rather than giving them.

Democracy is not built on movements saying "yes sir, may I have another" to politicians. Democracy is not built on citizens assuming that Great All-Knowing Politicians are so much smarter than us that we must defer to their positions and not judge merits on our own. Democracy is not built on movements simply cheering on the kleptocratic or immoral votes of politicians, just because those politicians call themselves one thing or another. If it was, the great movements of the past - from labor to civil rights to feminist movements - wouldn't have been making constant demands on Congress. They would have, instead, simply sat back like wimps and applauded, even when they were getting stomped on. And you know what? Those movements wouldn't have achieved the radical changes we now take for granted.

No, democracy, as Mike Lux's new book shows, is built on constant struggle - and progressive progress is built on movements that make demands, not movements that accept the word and votes of politicians as the word and votes of an Almighty Ideological Arbiter.

I think a healthy, substantive debate on the merits of what is - and is not - progressive is really important to building a strong and vibrant movement. That's one of the reasons why we sometimes debate that in a meta sense here at OpenLeft (and I frankly wish Silver would have made even a small attempt to debate the progressivism - or lack thereof - of the bailout on its merits, rather than on his policy-free analysis of congressional votes). But we get distracted when we embrace the kind of authoritarian Dear Leader-ism that says whatever politicians tell us is what we must support in the name of progressivism. We hurt ourselves when we declare that if Republicans vote for something, it can't be progressive, or alternately, that if Progressive Caucus members vote for something, it must be progressive - substance and merits be damned. That kind of reductionist thinking is a cheap, ignorant substitute for an informed analysis - and a strong movement.

* Note that Chris Bowers makes the convincing argument that, even by Silver's overly narrow vote metrics (that I take issue with in this post), the picture isn't so clear.


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That is not how I interpreted Nate's analysis (4.00 / 4)
I didn't think he was claiming that "whatever the Progressive Caucus does is the progressive position, period - regardless of the underlying substance of the legislation being voted on."

Rather, I thought he was merely positing that those who can fairly be described as progressive (based on their history of other votes) had basically supported the bailout, indicating that THEY believe such support was consistent with their overall philosophy.

I do not believe Nate's goal was to get into a debate over the meaning of "progressive," but to demonstrate that support for the bailout had come from those who are associated with the left-wing of the Democratic party.


* (4.00 / 2)
"THEY believe such support was consistent with their overall philosophy"

Well then we should let them know they were wrong.


[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 2)
I do think that challenging them is the logical conclusion.  

[ Parent ]
This is really an (4.00 / 4)
excellent -- even deep -- post, David.

In defining progressivism, or indeed in deciding in general on any right course of action, there is no escape from appealing to basic principles and exercising independent judgment.


what is progressive has been an awful debate of late (4.00 / 1)
When evaluating politicians, I think you need to look at all three axis to determine if a person is a progressive:  left/right, top-down/bottom-up, forward/backward.

On left/right, you have both social and economic halves.

So Silver uses charts to conclude that a position on half of one of three dynamics can be reverse-engineered via self-identification? Instead of just taking the short route and realizing that letting Wall Street plunder the national treasury on Bush's way out isn't progressive?


These analyses are really complementary (0.00 / 0)
This is my take on the current debate.

(1) Chris Bowers asserts that anti-bailout is the progressive position.
(2) Nate says he sees no "evidence" of that; for those who can be identified as "progressive" Congressmen supported the bailout in greater numbers than did those who may be identified as "conservative."
(3) David says that the meaning of "progressive" is not defined by its supporters.

I think everyone is right.  On a policy basis, the more progressive view is anti-bailout.  But because the votes don't reflect that, something else is going on here.  Either the politicians have a different ideological view the bailout, or their votes are simply not being dictated by ideology.


[ Parent ]
The latter (4.00 / 4)
It's the latter - and my guess is, specifically, that their votes are being dictated by both the influence of money and the desire to defer to President Obama. You can defend those two on their merits, if you want - but you can't say the desire to raise cash and/or the desire to vest more power in the executive branch are ideologically progressive impulses.

[ Parent ]
No, the former (0.00 / 0)
...at least based on Nate's results. No offense intended, David, but I get the impression that you misunderstand the nature/meaning of multivariate statistical regression. What Nate's number show is that a Congressperson's liberalness (as determined by voting record, not self-selected caucus memberships) was a good prediction of how they would vote on the bail-out INDEPENDENT OF ALL OTHER INFLUENCES (at least, among those that he considered).

Thus, the conclusion is that Congresspeople (of all political inclinations, incidentally) associate a pro-bailout position with liberalness and an anti-bailout position with conservativeness. It does not mean, as Jim Neuman pointed out above, that being pro-bailout is the progressive position or that we in the grassroots can't or shouldn't disagree --and you do Mr. Silver a great disservice by imputing such an opinion to him.


[ Parent ]
from Nate's analysis (4.00 / 1)
Here's the last paragraph:


I am well aware, certainly, that there are other ways to define "progressivism" besides through the voting tendencies of the Congress. At the same time, certain of those definitions may be self-serving. I could make an argument, for instance, that "progressive" values should (as I happen to believe) include fairly strong support for Second Amendment rights, but that is not the generally accepted position. Terms like "progressive" lose their meaning if they tend to be defined as "whatever the particular blogger thinks about the world".

Now, I don't think Nate means to say that you are making yourself the final judge on what is "progressive" and what is not "progressive". But I do think that, if you are going to get anywhere in this debate (i.e. whether or not opposing the bailout is the "progressive" position), you and Nate should come to an agreement on exactly what "progressive" means.


Sure, except (4.00 / 5)
I agree - except he's not arguing about the substance of the bill, or the substance of anything, other than who voted for it and who voted against it. You can't "come to an agreement" on an ideological term if one of the parties arguing defines the ideology on completely non-ideological, non-substantive terms that rely solely on who votes one way or the other.

[ Parent ]
I don't see how the (4.00 / 1)
vote can be described as the progressive position, but I also don't think those who supported it were anti-progressives.  Many supported it because they believed it was necessary, not because they wanted it.  Now those folks may have been wrong, but I see the vote as less of a progressive/not progressive vote than EFCA and the stimulus will be.

I suppose it depends on what "progressive" means.

I find interesting how fast global capitalism failed.  It went from the triumphant capitalism of the end of history to begging almost every big capitalist nation for government investment.

Free Market fundamentlism failed completely.
Will there be a socialist alternative?  


[ Parent ]
Not unless... (4.00 / 2)
...we exhume the ancient texts and polish them up to include what we've learned in the last hundred years, and more particularly, in the last sixty-odd.

If I had to employ a single catchphrase to explain what we have to reconcile -- without attribution, since I can't remember who said it -- it would be this: Capitalism has no peer when it comes to creating wealth, but its record of distributing wealth is abysmal. Even when you update this observation to exclude financial-service capitalism, which creates only the illusion of wealth, you can see the dilemma.

Classical versions of democratic socialism and social democracy need a lot of work before they can be sold to Americans, who are still for the most part lost in a wilderness of right wing populist demagoguery and what's-the-matter-with-Kansas ignorance. We've pissed on the Europeans for so long that it's very difficult, politically, to look to their post-war innovations for any guidance (see Michael Moore's travails with Sicko.)

Industrial labor unions, which used to be the principle advocate of social democratic thought in America, were crippled by the anticommunist purges of the 50s, and the remnants were destroyed by the twin scourges of Reaganism in the 80s and globalism/Clintonism in the 90s.

TIme for a reboot, I should think. Who's up for it, comrades?


[ Parent ]
principle/principal (4.00 / 1)
Curses, bitten in the ankles again. Apologies to my sixth-grade English teacher, who'd have given me a smart rap on the knuckles for my transgression. (Maybe I'd better go take a refresher course on capitol/capital before I raise her ghost again.)

[ Parent ]
The shock of democracy (4.00 / 4)

Terms like "progressive" lose their meaning if they tend to be defined as "whatever the particular blogger thinks about the world."

David's analysis is both timely and correct. The sentence quoted by dwbh, and repeated above, isn't an invitation to a debate, it's a warning that debate is counterproductive, to which I would reply, as David does, to what ends?

To paraphrase Paul Rosenberg, in a comment he made on another blog, many months ago:

When a country calls itself something like The Free Democratic People's Republic of Elbonia, you can be reasonably sure that a) it isn't free, b) no one gets to vote, c) it doesn't belong to the people, and d) it isn't a republic.

As with countries, so also with parties and movements, no matter what Nate Silver says.


[ Parent ]
Fair enough (4.00 / 3)
Terms like "progressive" lose their meaning if they tend to be defined as "whatever the particular blogger thinks about the world".

Sadly, however, there's an army of activists and bloggers--of which Silver is a prominent example--who put in tons of energy arguing that "progressive" should be defined as whatver a particular not-especially-progressive-president-thinks-about-the-world.

Silver may or may not be a brilliant numbers guy--I don't know enough to know--but let's puts this post in context. Silver, after all, is the guy who told us that Obama's cabinet was a liberal as Bush's was conservative.

He's interested in promoting Obama not progressivism, or he thinks promoting Obama is the best way to promote progressivism. In either case, I don't take him seriously.


[ Parent ]
That is a very shallow argument (4.00 / 2)
from Silver.

Look, it is absurd on any account to take "progressivism" as being defined by the voting patterns of a group of politicians who happen to describe themselves as "progressives" -- as if their vote can't be corrupted by any number of other considerations. Many, for example, calll themselves progressives because it is what appeals to the voters in their district. In today's context, the vast majority of voters who themselves like to embrace the image of being progressive are mostly uncritical supporters of Obama. There is tremendous pressure, therefore, for these "progressive" politicians to support Obama on a vote, be it progressive or not.

And Silver's comment that

Terms like "progressive" lose their meaning if they tend to be defined as "whatever the particular blogger thinks about the world".

could hardly miss the point more, or be more of a strawman.

Look, David and other bloggers aren't arguing: a vote is or is not progressive because I am a progressive and what I say is definitive. They are arguing instead that the vote must be justified or not based on basic principles of progressivism, and here are the principles that I think must apply. If one disagrees with David or others on the principles or how they apply, one is welcome to do so. In the end, again, there is no escape from looking to those basic principles, looking to the thing voted on, and asking whether it abides by those principles. There is no cheap, arithmetic, way out of this obligation.

It is a childish argument from Silver to try to pretend that those who find the vote in question are somehow falling into some silly fallacy. In fact, all the silly fallacies are on his side.


[ Parent ]
I meant (0.00 / 0)
in the penultimate sentence:

...to try to pretend that those who find the vote in question as failing in progressivism are somehow falling into some silly fallacy.


[ Parent ]
Heh (0.00 / 0)
I sometimes look at random pages in the dictionary hoping to learn new words or new definitions for words, or just learn what the "dictionary definition" of a word is. One had me laughing for days.

hard·-ass (härd?as?)
adj. tough, inflexible, etc.
n. one who is hard-ass.


Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!

Do we accept that what conservative politicians (4.00 / 1)
actually do is equivalent to conservatism?


Uh..NO! (0.00 / 0)
Are we some kind of popular party sluts to be used every party boosting event??

We tried that in 2006, remember??   And it didn't work!

The word 'Progressive' has become as tarnished as the word 'terrorism'. In campaigns  both Clinton and Lieberman have claimed they were Progressives.  We should have blasted the fact that they both ignored all public attendance at Harold Ford's little DLC meetings to be one of 'us' - for the day.

I love John, Chris and Nate - but neither Nate nor David were the long time rock solid "Progressives" of Chris Bowers' calibre.
Nate is the least of the three.  So it's no surprise he
misses pigeonholing us by quite a margin.

Chris and David are our top two voices- and they damn well need to be heard over the pablum served by the likes of  Steny Hoyer or Harry Reid.


Nationalism is not the same thing as terrorism, and an adversary is not the same thing as an enemy.


I'd say it's about populism (4.00 / 3)
I don't for a minute buy Silver's position. I think it's the kind of clever sophistry hidden behind a set of (themselves not entirely convincing) statistics that he sometimes indulges in when he wants to hold up a conservative or CW position as being superior to its progressive opponent.

Still, I don't think progressivism is the determinant here. I think it's populism. If you look at the members of the Progressive Caucus still voting no, it's mostly those with little institutional power and a position right on the outside. They also, not coincidentally, tend to be more populist.

Then you have the Blue Dogs, who can sell opposition to hand-outs and (to a lesser extent) Obama as standing up for themselves and their districts, and you have the Republicans, who are engaged in classic right-wing populism.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


It's A Major Concern (4.00 / 1)
To press for a convergence of progressivism and populism.  As I've been writing about here for some time.  And, of course, you can't work for a convergence of the two if you don't recognize their differences as currently constituted, and rooted in history.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
Agreed (4.00 / 1)
I tried to make that point the other day.  Those against the bailout are populist, not necessarily liberal or progressive.

[ Parent ]
just one question (0.00 / 0)
Do Blue Dogs get this break as well?
Likewise,  many Progressive Caucus members call themselves progressive because of their positions only on certain issues - some of which that have nothing to do with economic issues.


It's Not About Giving Anyone A Break (4.00 / 1)
If members of the Progressive Caucus don't vote in a progressive fashion, they should be criticized for it, and not be allowed to say it's a progressive vote just because they made it and they're part of the Progressive Caucus.

Where's the break in that?

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
All I meant was ... (0.00 / 0)
... just as someone's not necessarily a progressive for being in the Progressive Caucus, someone's not necessarily an a-hole for being in the Blue Dogs.  David, below, understands what I meant.

[ Parent ]
Yup, they do (4.00 / 2)
There are indeed a few Blue Dogs who are among the most progressive members of Congress on some very important issue. Mike Michaud, for instance, is one of the fair trade leaders in the House.  

[ Parent ]
Let's test the criterion Silver used (0.00 / 0)
Here's the list of the 15 most liberal Congress members by Silver's metric (the National Journal House Liberal score) ordered from highest to lowest score:

Sanchez, Linda, D-Calif.; Schakowsky, Jan, D-Ill.; Wynn, Albert, D-Md.; McGovern, Jim, D-Mass.; Conyers, John, D-Mich.; Baldwin, Tammy, D-Wis.; Moore, Gwen, D-Wis.; Capps, Lois, D-Calif.; Honda, Mike, D-Calif.; Delahunt, Bill, D-Mass.; Watt, Melvin, D-N.C.; Ellison, Keith, D-Minn.; Carson, Julia, D-Ind.; Farr, Sam, D-Calif.; Hinchey, Maurice, D-N.Y.

How well does this match your definition of liberal house members?


IT IS PROGRESSIVE BECAUSE IT IS PUBLIC SPENDING!!! (0.00 / 0)
Same standard Sirota rightly uses in evaluating the stimulus bill -- as liberals, along with , we need to insist on (a) getting as large a bill as possible and (b)spending rather than tax cuts as the correct way to act.

Same standard must apply for bail-out, esp. now that Obama is spending the money.

At times of economic crisis, progressivism must always stand on the side of more emergency public spending rather than less.

That's what is so wrong-headed about Sirota's "kleptocracy" shtick.  In current state of play, it just empowers a Republican/DLCish/Blue Dog frame.



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