Can Ideas Win Campaigns?

by: Chris Bowers

Thu Sep 13, 2007 at 12:34


Based on the results of their recent early state polls, The Los Angeles Times has an article worth reading on Hillary Clinton winning the support of Democrats who want an immediate withdrawal of all US troops from Iraq. It makes me wonder if this entire residual forces argument has any chance to resonate with voters:

Gayle Moore, an Iowa nurse, wants U.S. troops "out, out, out" of Iraq as soon as possible. Darleen McCarthy of South Carolina fears that Iraq is turning into "another Vietnam."

But when these two Democrats vote in January to help decide their party's 2008 presidential nominee, neither plans to support the self-styled antiwar candidates. Instead, they are siding with the one top contender who voted to authorize the invasion and has refused to apologize for that -- Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton.

"It's just a gut feeling," said Moore, 53, a mother of five. "It's her experience."(…)

"It's just the way Hillary Clinton handles herself," said McCarthy, 55, who lives near Myrtle Beach. "She says what she wants, and I think she'll let the American people know exactly what's going on."

It is easy to read this section of the article and dismiss it as unscientific "person on the street" interviews, and I admit that reading those comments made me think about once again banging my head against hard, flat surfaces. However, there are more than just occasional examples. According to the same article, Clinton holds a commanding lead in early states on Iraq:

The poll, which surveyed registered voters who planned to turn out for the primaries or caucuses in Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina, found that a plurality of Democratic primary or caucus voters in each state thought Clinton would be "the best at ending the war in Iraq" -- 33% in Iowa, 32% in New Hampshire and 36% in South Carolina. Clinton holds substantial leads even among voters who listed the war as the top priority facing the candidates.

Democratic pollster Dave Beattie, who is not affiliated with a campaign, said Clinton's rivals risked reaching a "point of diminishing returns" if they focused too heavily on differences between them and Clinton on Iraq.

Most voters, he said, are not concerned about the differences, given that each candidate is essentially critical of the war and promises to end it.(…)

"None of the Democratic candidates has a position that is outside the realm of acceptable for what the Democratic electorate is looking for," Beattie said, even though "it may not be their absolute favorite position."

Hillary Clinton does indeed promise to end the war. On the section of her website entitled "ending the war," there is a version of the refrain she has often used in the campaign: "she has also been clear: if George Bush refuses to end the war, when she is president, she will." Even though she voted for the war five years ago, has not apologized for that vote, and has made it clear that she will leave at least 40,000 American troops in Iraq for an indeterminate amount of time, she keeps says that she will end the war, and that most troops need to come home. Now, I don't think it is possible to end the war while still keeping tens of thousands of American troops in Iraq. I also don't think politicians who say they will end the war but also say they will keep troops in Iraq are being honest with Democratic voters. However, the fact is that there has not been a meaningful debate on residual forces among the candidates or in the media thus far. As such, there is not reason for me to expect that the argument will resonate with many Democrats, at least yet. Given what she has said, and the lack of debate on this issue, why wouldn't Democratic voters think that Clinton is going to end the war?

Hillary Clinton is a much smarter politician than Joe Lieberman. Lieberman had to blow a huge lead in the 2004 primary campaign to finish a distant fifth or sixth, and then lose a primary in 2006 to Ned Lamont before he finally realized that he needed to tell people that he wanted to end the war. He didn't mean it, but he said it repeatedly during the general election campaign against Lamont, and it turned a tied campaign where Lamont had the momentum into a nine point victory for Lieberman. During the general election, no one in the media or in the Democratic establishment called him on it, either. While the situation is not precisely analogous, much the same thing is happening now. Most of the Democratic establishment wants to keep residual forces in Iraq, most of her opponents want to keep residual troops in Iraq, and reporters stenograph Clinton's lines about wanting to end the war and bringing troops home. As such, why shouldn't Democratic voters think that she will end the war? Unlike 2004 and 2006 primary election Lieberman, who repeatedly ran paid advertising telling Democratic voters that he disagreed with them, Clinton is instead saying what most other Democrats are saying. This is working so well, that not only do Democratic voters overwhelmingly think she will end the war, but they actually think she is the candidate most likely to end the war by large amounts.

Reading this article left with a tremendous feeling of hopelessness and disempowerment. Is it really possible to break through this bubble of disinformation on Iraq that Democratic elites are complicit in maintaining? Is there enough pressure from not only the base, but also from other candidates and the media in order to really have an honest debate about residual forces in Iraq? I have been writing about this more or less continuously for five months now, and I feel that progress has been slow, at best. Can policy ideas change campaigns? Right now, I am not feeling a huge amount of confidence that they do. Maybe I should just start writing about something vacuous, like change versus experience, instead. At least that way I would be in the mainstream of public discourse on the 2008 campaign.

Chris Bowers :: Can Ideas Win Campaigns?

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If Hillary wins (0.00 / 0)
it won't be based on ideas because I have yet to hear any.  However, as Gayle Moore says, "It's just a gut feeling", then Hillary will win based on that.  I mean, Bill was good for people's pocketbooks?  Right?  Or maybe not.  Well, he was certainly good for CEOs pocketbooks.  Besides, thanks for Bill, we now have 8 years of Bush.

unfair to Bill (0.00 / 0)
`the Big Dog produced the lowest rate of peace time unemployement. He opened up the internet and GPS, creating millions of jobs. He insisted on enforcing the Community Reinvestment Act and the Fair Credit Act, which effectively bought millions of dollars into America's most troubled communities. Clinton revised the audit proceedure for gun dealers, concentrating attention on dealers whose inventory wound up in crimes, thus dramatically reducing crime. He was the best President of my life time.

I don't like Hillary Clinton and I think Bill made some errors with NAFTA and other things, but we should defend our leaders.


[ Parent ]
Of Course Ideas CAN Win Campaigns (4.00 / 3)
but not all by themselves.

And basically we're running against much more than just a position on Iraq.  We're running against a whole vision of politics that sees itself as post-New Deal, rather than building on New Deal.  And we have Obama offering an "alternative" that is post-post-New Deal, as if that's an improvement.

In short, what we're running against is it's own idea, deeply embedded in a powerful network of institutions.  And to fight that idea, we need to take our own ideas and embed them into a counter-network of institutions.

Unembedded ideas just can't get much traction.

"No ideas but in things."

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


Grim prospect (4.00 / 2)
What will break through for people, slowly, after 2008, will be the experience of the elected Dems keeping the Iraq war going. That's what keeping troops there means.

And the result will be massive alienation from the democratic process, because neither party, in power, will do the clear will of the voters.

But Chris -- yes, policy ideas can change campaigns -- but probably only if elites believe their whole cushy system of dominance is threatened. When they believe that staying in power requires a better idea, only then they will they look around. That seems to have happened in the early '30s when capitalism itself seemed at risk. A lot of people got a lot of good things out of the New Deal and its followers. But it seems to take that kind of pressure.

Climate change? Financial collapse? -- Maybe.

Can it happen here?


The two party system (4.00 / 2)
Our political system treats ideas like Orkin treats roaches. This is especially damaging to the left because it has to try to communicate more complex ideas than will fit handily into slogans. Even more harmful, there ARE no ideas on the left outside of small publications and websites that cater to political/policy junkies. The right has all its thinktank propagandists who are in the rolodexes of "journalists" as experts on virtually any topic. The left has nothing comparable, and little taste for real ideas, which it dismisses as bad ol' "ideology".

So we end up with a Democratic Party that mainly wants to make everybody comfortable, yet pretty much marks the left extreme of the credible political spectrum. Hence virtually all the dialog on Iraq from Dem candidates and incumbents has been singularly devoid of moral argument. It's all about strategic errors, not the genocidal hubris that define it. Among the candidates only Edwards and Kucinich have tried to go somewhat beyond "pragmatism" --ie putting a new rubber band on the broken machine. And nobody is interested in hearing what they have to say, though even they offer little real challenge to the structural status quo. We are paying the price for several generations of Dem worship at the altar of a scam version of pragmatism. America needs a hard shaking to clear our heads, but all we get is a pat on the head and some cookies and milk. So I guess the shaking will come from elsewhere.


What Paul Said. (0.00 / 0)
It is about much, much more than whether or not a politician takes a position like "no residual forces" or "out of iraq". Those are just slogans, and any politician can mouth any slogan, and we aren't necessarily ahead. Pandering? Or do they really believe it? As you say, the only way to tell is if they demonstrate real action and real leadership.

So, now we see Clinton mouthing the "out of iraq" slogan. Bush and the dead-end Republicans have illustrated that people CHOOSE what to believe, irregardless of the facts. Clinton's words gives anti-war voters who already like her the ability to believe she is against the war, but doesn't offer any proof.

I've argued against the slogan "no residual forces" because it is a weak litmus test of what the candidate's Foreign Policy line will be. It doesn't really add anything to the "out of Iraq" position. For more confidence in how they will act once they are elected, we need other evidence; perhaps we need to look at the makeup of their advising team.

I want a Foreign Policy political change that is fundamentally different. That isn't going to come from any of the centrists (although they'll be a damn sight better than any of the Republicans). The problem they face is that they are all stuck in conventional DC wisdom.

I want to see evidence that they are breaking out of the CW.


Will they? (0.00 / 0)
"they'll be a damn sight better than any of the Republicans"

When I try to imagine the long term, I've come to seriously wonder if that's true. Hillary more and more strikes me as a kind of political oxycontin: an unmitigated blessing, but only if the patient is dying.


[ Parent ]
Yeah, they'll be better... How much? (0.00 / 0)
We have an extremist, right-wing Foreign Policy establishment in control. The Democrats will probably run a Conservative Foreign Policy, but they'll be more realistic in the limits of US power, and more likely to work in a multi-lateral way.

So, yeah, I don't think they'll run a truly progressive Foreign Policy, but they'll shift the moral foundations a little bit. And we should be a step away from the rest of the Middle East blowing up.

For me, a more moral Iraq policy would be to mitigate civilian deaths. I'm not hearing any of the candidates approach the issue with that as a benchmark.


[ Parent ]
Not the same old Dem Foreign Policy (0.00 / 0)
From Richardson: http://hir.harvard.e...

[ Parent ]
It's about trust, not ideas (0.00 / 0)
First of all, "this bubble of disinformation on Iraq that Democratic elites are complicit in maintaining" is something that you are guilty of too.

You don't bother to mention that John Edwards co-sponsored Joe Lieberman's Iraq War Resolution, and also lied about Iraq's nucleur threat to justify his vote.

That fact has a great bearing on Edwards trustworthiness, and this election is as much about trust as it is about ideas. Which candidate do you trust to bring home the troops and to lead in a time of war and insecurity?

At the moment, the answer for the majority of Democrats is Hillary Clinton. Why? Because, as one survery responder said, "She's smart. She knows how the system works." They trust that she can get done what she says she'll do.

Those feelings can change. It's early. A lot of people aren't paying attention, or haven't decided yet. But the other candidates have to build a level of trust with voters. Edwards tried to build trust by saying he was sorry for his vote. Some voters believe him; others think he's full of crap.

Obama hasn't acted confidently enough for many voters to have confidence in him, or to trust him. If I were Obama, I would start boldly articulating my vision for the future, and boldly lead on key issues such as Iraq.

It's true that some voters don't trust Hillary, and so they fall in with some of the other candidates. Mostly, though, Clinton has acted confidently, and people know her. They know what she's able to do. Still many are uncertain of what she's willing to do. This would be where I would challenge her.


What's she able to do? (4.00 / 1)
Get herself married to an ambitious and charismatic pol? Use that to become a senator?

I'm not as hostile to her (quite) as that sounds, but this "experience" meme makes me crazy. It's right up there with "defeating terrorism by staying in Iraq" for a 180 disconnect from reality.


[ Parent ]
First Lady Toughness (0.00 / 0)
She's able to manage a family and a career, act as First Lady, effectively respond to attacks by the Republican hate machine, raise a brilliant daughter, write a book, inspire women all over the world, run and win a Senate seat in a state she lived in for a few months, beating American hero Rudy Giuliani in the process. 

That's pretty compelling if you ask me. And although I'm not likely to vote for her in the primary, I will support her if she wins the general election.


[ Parent ]
No, this is worth pushing back (4.00 / 1)
What does she have experience doing? She's been getting her ass kicked up and down the block for 15 years.  As soon as I want someone experienced in not getting anything accomplished, I'll vote for her.

John McCain opposes the GI Bill.

[ Parent ]
For most people (4.00 / 1)
pulling out all but 30,000 or 40,000 troops will be ending the war.  So how do we deal with this?

Yes. And that's true of many progressives ... (4.00 / 2)
...as well, which I keep discovering to my chagrin and regret. Their theme goes along the lines of: just get withdrawal started and that will build momentum in the right direction. Don't worry about residual troops.

Does anybody remember Vietnam for real? Nixon started withdrawing troops within months of his Inauguration, and almost as many were killed on his watch as on Lyndon Johnson's. Not to mention vast numbers of Southeast Asians.

But, difficult as it sounds to change things, as Chris has laid out here, difficult even among those on the progressive side of the spectrum - and as much as I agree with MetaData of the need for an entirely new Foreign Policy for the post-Cold War, post-September 11 world - I don't think we should stop hammering on the residual troops issue.

That's one reason I have (reluctantly) come to support the Center for American Progress's Strategic Reset proposal. Yes, it includes 10,000 residual troops until the end of 2009, but clearly there for a reasonable purpose, keeping the Turks and Kurds out of each other's gunsights while some international arrangement can be worked out. It also would send 10,000 to Kuwait and 20,000 to Afghanistan indefinitely. But that's a lot better than the PNAC-imitating plan of Clinton, Obama and Biden to leave 40,000+ in Iraq for who knows how long.


[ Parent ]
Here's the point, MB (4.00 / 1)
Except for limited purposes pretty much along the lines of those expressed in Reid-Feingold, having residual forces in Iraq is probably going to turn out to be an obvious waste of money and lives.  But people are not going to understand that until we have gotten to a place where we are down to 40,000 troops and look around and figure out where we are.  It may be that something has changed by that time to where even CAP and me (maybe not you and Bowers) will say that for reasons I don't now anticipate, we ought to have troops there for a while longer, although I doubt it.  (The main way that I could conceive would be if regional powers beseeched us to come back in as part of a multinational force, probably after we'd largely left, and even then I don't see why it wouldn't make more sense for us to, say, hire the Muslim Indonesian army to keep the peace for a lot less money instead of us doing it ourselves.)

What a refusal to commit to "no residual forces" does right now is prevent candidates from being hemmed in on questions like "what do you do if Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia becomes seriously resurgent?", which *will* be raised (and wielded like a bludgeon) in this campaign, and the answer to which in this campaign (as in Reid-Feingold) will pretty much have to be "we will retain what troops are necessary to fight them."  (As you note, preventing a hot war in the north is another valid, and more benign, reason for a troop presense, which doesn't rule out alternatives.)  Being able to assure voters that we're not turning over an Iraqi failed state as a petri dish to grow Al Qaeda fighters (which, of course, it already is with us there) is, I believe, exactly why you don't have the major Democrats taking a firm "no residual troops" pledge yet, even though, being smart wonks, all are likely to leave none or almost none when in office.

This isn't Vietnam.  Rather than Nixon wanting to continue Johnson's war for ideological reasons, a new Democratic President has no ideological reason to continue Bush's war.  Let them get to 40,000 or whatever, look around and assess the situation, and then let's push them for a rapid and rational drawdown at that time.  We just don't *need* a firm pledge yet, especially because as conditions change they could weasel out of any such promise.

You are convincing me that the CAP plan is a good thing for which we should agitate, but my sense is that a pledge of 40,000 with a pledge of no control of Iraqi oil and no permanent bases probably gets us to much the same place.

I speak only for myself, not for those voices in the next room that won't leave me alone.


[ Parent ]
There's another issue too... (0.00 / 0)
If there is a need for a humanitarian missions or a desire on the part of the US to help rebuild and clean up the mess we created, some sort of military presence or mission will be required.  I think many will agree that that's a legit use of the military.

Unfortunately, I think we're sunk in a no win siutation.  I think we need to get all our troops out as soon as possible (maybe the 10,000 you mention stay till 2010 with clear plans for redeployment into Europe or the Med).

What I do know is that we'll be paying the cost of this misadventure for generations to come.


[ Parent ]
Will the war in Iraq end (4.00 / 1)
if ALL the US soldiers and contractors are withdrawn?

Or, will the US combat role in the Iraqi civil war end when such is accomplished?

We throw that phrase around so easily, "End the War!" - but that's not really what we are talking about, is it?

The latent arrogance of empire keeps us believing that the war is over just because OUR military is no longer directly involved.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
I worry (4.00 / 1)
that the residual forces argument is too detailed and picayune for our current media and political culture. People might need to be hit over the head with a) what "residual forces" means, and b) why having any residual forces is so bad, because I don't think most voters, even Democrats, really understand Iraq. They know that they don't like Bush's position, and they know they want to get out, but the details seem to be sort of lost on them.

These voter comments get back to the whole thing about why people choose candidates. It's not really their policy positions, for the most part. It's certainly not the *details* of their policy positions. It's more about gut feeling, how they perceive the candidate as a person.

I agree with you it's a sad state of affairs, but that's why I always say this is a long-term effort we're in. We have to build a movement that stands for something, and that can be mobilized when we know there is something we need to fight for. We don't have that yet.

Politics is a strong and slow boring of hard boards.


Americans vote for "brands" (4.00 / 1)
in politics just about as much as in a supermarket.

So like "Coca-Cola," brand "Hillary" has certain familiar attributes in the minds of voters - both those who love her and those who hate her.

Just like no one reads the nutrition label on a can of Coca-Cola, no one reads the details of Hillary's Iraq exit plan. When she says she'll "end the war," they just trust her (or don't), depending on their feelings towards brand "Hillary."

The other candidate "brands" are still developing. Obama's "brand" is pretty solid at this point, and it appeals to a different group, much like "Pepsi" buyers are a different group from "Coca-Cola" buyers. There isn't much more of a substantive difference either - supporters of Hillary and Obama line up pretty much on the same issues.

In our "brand" dominated political culture, "issues" just aren't terribly important for the broad electorate. It's only those who are obsessed with politics and government who pay close attention to "issues," and we are maybe 10% of the country.

We're influential because we're obsessed and articulate, but only up to a point - and not enough to overcome strong brands like "Hillary."


Ideal vs. Reality (4.00 / 1)
This discussion reminds me of Dr. Westen's The Political Brain and how liberals have been hamstrung by their belief in a rational, dispassionate mind. It's somewhat amazing to me that we seem to be willing to accept the reality of the political brain writ large, but somehow do not think those lessons apply to our own Democratic primary voters. Do we really believe that our voters are somehow more rational or less prone to emotional appeals?

What is true of the general public is true of Democratic voters. It would be arrogant for us to think any different. That is not to say that having a debate over residual forces is pointless, but to believe that it will move very many votes in and of itself is a bit naive. Outside of us information junkies, most folks are not going to be concerned with that level of detail. What matters to them is "out of Iraq."

I would be reluctant to say that this could not ever be made into a larger issue, but it would take a concerted effort to tie it to something more tangible. Perhaps it could be linked to honesty, insofar that saying "troops out of Iraq" when said by Clinton or Obama doesn't really mean that. But the issue then would not be residual forces, it would be honesty. And honesty is something far easier for a person to grasp than the level of residual forces.


propaganda (4.00 / 1)
Of course the whole "residual forces" construct is a propaganda scam. As if "forces" and "residual forces" are two unrelated concepts that have nothing to do with each other. The reality is that either you keep forces in Iraq, maybe more than now, maybe less, or you get them all out. If a candidate could rip the curtain off the illusion, the issue might get some traction.

[ Parent ]
You need to read Drew Westen's book (4.00 / 2)
if you haven't, Chris.  This is not a mystery.  People form gut impressions of candidates and their likely policies, and specifics such as how many residual troops we leave don't matter much to them.  Quantitative goals and plans matter to wonks such as those of us here, but voters' eyes glaze over from them -- go look at Al Gore's passionless, wonky answers from the 2000 debates if you want a cardinal example of this -- and they are satisfied with general, qualitative information about the direction of change.

The problem with Hillary is that she is not as trustworthy as the others to make those qualitative changes, because she is likely to be a replay of her husband's Presidency.  She is likely to triangulate.  It will be better to be her enemy than her friends.  All of the things that I remember being predicted about Bill Clinton back in January 1992 based on his time as Arkansas Governor, and that came true, are also true of Hillary.

A *qualitative* challenge to Bill Clinton's record as President -- not on the success with the economy or the effective intervention in the Balkans, but on his habit of rolling over for the Republicans -- is the best way to beat Hillary.  Examples of this abound.  That would get at the unease that most of us have about her: she will not stand up to Republicans.  And you don't need a single goddamned number to make that case.

I speak only for myself, not for those voices in the next room that won't leave me alone.


Unanswered question (0.00 / 0)
Would caucus-goers distinguish between the Richardson plan and the Clinton plan if they knew the details?  How many agree with Clinton that withdrawing more than half the troops and tinkering with the mission is "ending the war"?  I have yet to seeing polling on that.

Consider that the U.S. military is stationed in large numbers in many foreign countries: Germany, the Balkans, other E. European countries, Central Asian countries, Turkey (I think), those little Persian Gulf States, Korea, Cuba.  You and I know the difference, but do other Democrats think leaving a Korea-sized force in Iraq, if a Clinton chose to do so, would end up being a continuation of a Vietnam-like quagmire, or do they think it would be a "standard" Korea-like deployment?

I have seen the polling on what the voters believe to be the candidate's plans: A majority think that Romney and Giuliani  have a plan like Obama's actual plan, and Clinton is perceived to be to the left of Obama.  Fine.

I wonder can we do a poll of caucus-goers on the Democrats' actual plans.  Present those plans one-by-one without attaching candidate names, but with reasonable estimates of troop commitment (60,000 for Clinton, less for the rest).  Ask for Strong Approval/Approval/Disapproval/Strong Disapproval of the Clinton plan, the Edwards plan (which includes undefined "genocide prevention"?), the Obama plan (as set forth yesterday on paper by the campaign), and the Richardson plan.


doom and gloom (0.00 / 0)
Wow, the gloomy atmosphere here is pretty thick.

Ideas are winning the primary, Hillary Clinton's ideas. If left bloggers bothered to engage with them they might understand why. Instead they stick with litmus tests and caricatures they inherited from Republicans. Like most of the candidates Clinton has been making a substantive case for many policies to voters across the country, if you don't like the way the media covers the race you can find the substance on the web.

I'm a liberal Democrat who opposed the Iraq war from the start, the occupation has played out as I expected and is deeply discouraging. No Democratic candidate has presented a withdrawal plan that I find more compelling than any other, but I see Clinton grappling with it most honestly. She hasn't tried to "grab the anti-war mantle" or pretend she's something she's not. She's clearly pledged to end the war, she's been taking action from her position in the Senate to push Bush to end it and she's been realistic about what is required for us to withdraw. That is why I trust her most to get us out responsibly.

I'm curious what 'disinformation' I'm swallowing. Clinton has never pretended to be a dove, nor has she ever pretended to be an 'all troops out now' candidate. All of our candidates agree that we have some responsibility for Iraq after the occupation, its just that some are more optimistic about our ability to involve foreign troops as we withdraw and others prefer not to talk about it. The arguments against her -- she showed bad judgment voting for the Iraq AUMF, she won't apologize, she won't pledge "no residual troops" -- don't resonate with me because they don't address the reality of our position in Iraq or her statements and actions now regarding Iraq.


Senate? (4.00 / 1)
What has she done from the Senate?

Ywa, she voted in favour of withdrawal, but along with Obama she conspicuously failed to use her bully pulpit to agitate in favour of what she ended up voting for.

Obviously, she's not the devil and whilst I disagree with her policy on Iraq, it's better than current policy. But I don't see her sticking her head above the parapet in any particularly notable way.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
Senate action (0.00 / 0)
Clinton-Byrd de-authorization

S.670, her redeployment plan

forcing the Pentagon to brief the Senate on withdrawal plans, over Cheney's objections.

co-sponsoring Levin-Reed

Her Petraeus letter to Bush, and the questions that followed from it. Her work on wavering Senators Collins and Warner.

Her letter to Bush prior to his speech tonight.


[ Parent ]
on the question of policy ideas mattering in campaigns... (0.00 / 0)
Can policy ideas change campaigns? Right now, I am not feeling a huge amount of confidence that they do. Maybe I should just start writing about something vacuous, like change versus experience, instead.

Chris, I'd like to think that certain policy ideas change campaigns.  Just look at the GOP side, where the specifics of immigration policy have clearly impacted the race by hurting McCain's standing.

For whatever reason, the residual forces issue just isn't influencing voters in the Democratic primaries.  You could say the same about dozens of important issues--gun control, net neutrality, etc.  I think your work on residual forces is admirable and necessary.  However, I think it's a challenging issue to position as a "make or break" in this primary (given both the larger forces at work and the particulars of the issue itself).  Still, with continued agitation, I think we can possibly still make this emerge as a key issue in the primary or at least lay the groundwork to wage a vigorous legislative campaign on residual forces come 2009.


Chris and the residual force i (0.00 / 0)
The residual force issue will resonate as voter's and pundits start to look at the polcies for getting out of Iraq.

I know you have raised this issue, but hang in there it will start to resonate.

The candidates are going to be forced to answer this question. It is bubbling up.


[ Parent ]
It's still early in the election - don't get discouraged (0.00 / 0)
Everyone visiting this blog was probably thinking about the '08 election after the results from Ohio came in in 2004.  But we are atypical.  We are the early adopters to to speak.

Most Dem voters haven't thought through the issue of how best to end the war.  HRC isn't going to get a free pass on this issue.  But right now voters are operating on gut instinct at this point.  At this point, most voters don't trust Obama or Edwards to lead us when it comes to foreign policy and they don't know anything yet about the other candidates.  The dynamics of the election will quicken and change in the coming months.  Obama and Edwards will try to reassure voters that they can lead America on the world stage.  Richardson will press hard that can he has the best plan for ending the war.

Keep in mind almost 1/2 of Iowa Dem caucus voters in 2004 didn't select their candidate until less than a month prior to the election.


Another possibility (0.00 / 0)
Perhaps when people hear the term "residual forces", they think that these will be non-combat troops who will not be fighting and therefore will not be wounded or killed. Words like "training" and "guarding" do not convey a picture of battle.

If we want people to "get the picture", we should emphasize that residual troops will still be in great danger in Iraq.


bullshit (0.00 / 0)
Most of the people I know WANT residual forces because they don't want the bloodbath of ethnic cleansing that will ensue if all American troops are withdrawn in one fell-swoop.  I'm anti-war.  Everyone in my family is anti-war.  Hell, everyone I know well is anti-war.  We listen to Bill Richardson and, respect him as we all do, we can't help but laugh.  Who the fuck is he kidding?  ALL troops out fast.

Chris Bowers, listen up.  Bill Richardson is offering the plan you want.  NO residual forces.  Why isn't HE your guy? 

The electorate are strongly on Hillary's side because she tells it like it is and speaks the truth even though she knows it could cost her the election.  John Edwards is a chameleon.  He did a complete about-turn just in time to try for his 2nd bid for the Presidency.  I know his record backwards.  He's as hawkish as anyone.  Don't you think the electorate have squirmy feelings about Edwards?  Well, they do.  They don't trust the guy.

They trust Hillary.  She is who she is.  She isn't trying to be anything else.  And that's the truth man.  That's the fucking truth.  Too bad certain progressive Dems refuse to acknowledge it. 

Oh yeah, and it might help the Democratic Party as a whole if those who write these diaries ease up on the words "elite" and "elitist" when talking about the only candidate, so far, who has managed to maintain a steady whopping lead in all national polls, in every state poll, in every swing state and against every GOP contender.  She's no more elitist than Obama, Biden, Edwards or any of the others. 

Stop the bullshit and pay attention.  Rudy Giuliani is also "in it to win it".  How would you like HIM for President?


Nobody wants the bloodbath of ethnic cleansing (4.00 / 2)
Unfortunately, it's already happened. Baghdad doesn't have mixed neighbourhoods any more. An area is either Sunni or Shia. That didn't happen by chance. That happened by the machete, the AK-47 and by a couple of million displaced people.

And frankly if we're talking of ethnic (well, sectional actually, seeing as it's based on creed rather than ethnicity) cleansing on the holocaust or Srebrenica pattern rather than the slow creep we've had thus far, residual forces aren't needed. You stop that kind of thing with aerial munitions and over-the-horizon troops.

The Sunni and the Shia are at each other's throats. All that American troops are doing right now is acting as targets to gain extra prestige. They're still killing each other and this can be controlled (to the extent that such an event can actually be controlled) without having to deploy large numbers of troops in Iraq indefinitely.

I realise what I'm saying here is far from empathetic. But we can't stop the sectional warfare, because it's already been going for about three years. All that can be done is to ameliorate it whilst losing as few troops as possible. And I don't think a continued deployment accomplishes enough to justify the casualties it causes (in terms of both US military and Iraqi civilian deaths).

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
True - and we have an example (0.00 / 0)
in the South, I think.  The Brits have pulled back and are headed out of the country, even as we post.  Where is the chaos and turmoil?  You can say its because these are not "mixed" populations in the South, but not all inter-tribal fighting is between Sunni and Shia, nor is AQI limited to strikes in the center of Iraq.

If al-Anbar can be a model for the rest of Iraq - why not the South?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
There are no "models" for the rest of Iraq. (0.00 / 0)
Spitball:
You're dead wrong that there is no "chaos and turmoil" in the south of Iraq. The two main Shia factions -- al Sadr's Mahdi Army and the SCIRI Badhr Brigade, which was trained by the Iranian National Guard -- are at each other's throats for control of the oil trade through Basra. Check out this article  by Juan Cole in Salon:
http://www.salon.com...

[ Parent ]
I did not mean to say there is "no chaos" (0.00 / 0)
Sorry if I implied such.

There just doesn't seem to be the massive increase that we are all told will be precipitated if the US withdraws form the rest of Iraq.  I raise the issue to question whether that kind of fear-mongering is based in reality, or is another attempt at persuasion by the Bush League and Centrist Democrats.

I agree about the "no models" comment - that part of my post was a tad sarcastic and a back-handed slap at the picture painted by Petraeus and Crocker with regard to al-Anbar and its value as a "model" for the rest of Iraq.



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Overoptimistic, I'd argue (0.00 / 0)
Whilst I'm frankly suspicious about a lot of claims of the violence in the south - most seem to come from prominent neo-conservatives who are very pissed off about British moves towards withdrawal - Basra is still not much of a model for anything.

The situation there is better than in Baghdad, but factional fighting continues and will get worse now they'll have to compete against each other by fighting one another rather than firing mortars at British bases. The kleptocracy is alive and well on the streets there. This may be partly due to conditions in Iraq as a whole, it may be due to British failures or troop shortages (our army is small and we frankly need all the combat troops we can get in Helmand, whilst the occupation of Basra primarily makes sense to keep the special relationship going) but whatever the case I think we have to aim much higher than we managed in Basra.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
Sure - aim higher (0.00 / 0)
But even given the poor conditions in the Basrah and the south in general - the British have (so far) managed to pull-back their forces and not promote a complete melt-down as is predicted by the pundits and prognosticators.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that Basrah is an island of peace, tranquility and brotherhood.  I'm just trying to point out that the "gloom-n-doom" scenario doesn't appear to be taking place.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Nobody predicted that for Basra (0.00 / 0)
The British sectors have been historically quiet. You can put that down to dislike of Saddam, or to the confessional make-up of the population, or to British tactics or whatever you like, but the south just has not seen half as much chaos as regions further north. Three out of the four provinces were handed back to Iraqi authority without trouble a while back and even Basra is in a much better state than Mosul, for example.

In the American-held provinces, I'm afraid to say that there is more potential for trouble when the pull-out comes. The militias there are stronger and in a lot of the provinces there is a struggle between Sunni and Shia. I'm not saying we shouldn't pull out, but I am saying that Basra is (for all that it's not good enough) the best-case scenario.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
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