The Stollerism

by: Mike Lux

Thu Sep 27, 2007 at 17:34


Okay, so I know that I usually write in measured tones, and do a fair amount of "on the other hand" and "I can see his point" kind of comments. It undoubtedly limits my audience, because it can be a little boring, but that's who I am. I see where other people are coming from and can respect it. Usually.

But I just have to say this about the Kevin Sullivan post on "Introducing the Stollerism": what a stupid piece of drivel. In it, Kevin Sullivan announces that a Stollerism is to "declare all debate on a subject over" and "purge the Democratic Party of all dissenting voices."

His evidence? He links to the Bush Dog campaign. The Bush Dog campaign has been a campaign to point out that many Democrats support Bush on a range of issues, and encourage activists to challenge them on those votes. In a few specific cases (very few, actually), Matt or Chris or I have suggested that supporting people running in primaries against Bush Dogs would be a good thing to do. Yeah, that's really purging dissent.

Let me suggest, Mr. Sullivan, that you don't pay very much attention to what actually happens at OpenLeft.com.

As anyone who reads OpenLeft.com knows, Stoller and I disagree from time to time. Friends sometimes kid me that the main reason they check into the site is to see whether Matt and I are arguing about something. But, you know, that is one of the things I love about OpenLeft.com, and more broadly the blogosphere- it's a place where you can engage your friends openly, and talk through your different approaches to politics based on your own perspectives and experiences.

I have argued with Stoller on policy, on tactics, on whether specific politicians are worth liking, on all kinds of things, and I haven't been purged yet. Matt hasn't kicked me out of the Party, or declared that I am banned form the progressive movement, or declared that I am no longer allowed to argue with him.

The problem with writers like Sullivan is that they seem to think that any challenge to their favorite politicians and favorite policies are terrible, that having the temerity to question "authority" and vigorously debate are tantamount to a purge (note the red-baiting symbolism as well).

Take primaries, for example: I will admit that I don't have the enthusiasm that some folks in the blogosphere do for trying to launch a huge number of primary fights against incumbents. There are pros and cons to doing a primary fight, and I think they are hard to win. Except in rare circumstances, I wouldn't support a primary against a Democratic in a really tough conservative district, for example.

But sometimes I think they are just what the doctor ordered, especially when you have a state (CT in 2006) or district (Al Wynn's in Maryland, for example) that is strongly progressive and Democratic, and the incumbent has gotten too arrogant to pay attention to what the voters in their district want. This idea that primaries are purges is fundamentally anti-democratic and wrong.

Challenging conventional wisdom and questioning authority is a good thing, not a bad one. It strengthens our Party, brings new people and ideas into politics, and opens up avenues for real change. Get over yourself, Kevin.

Mike Lux :: The Stollerism

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The Stollerism | 12 comments
Pretty poor (0.00 / 0)
Well, I doubt whether readers of sense and judgement would have inferred from his piece that Stoller was setting himself up as an Iran expert!

But Sullivan is clearly not interested in rational discussion either of US Iran policy or of the nature and quality of spherical discourse: it's just a hit piece, and a flimsy one.

Not, natch, that Stoller does not have his faults: perhaps, just occasionally, he is inclined to oversimplify, to make premature judgements, to jump to conclusions.

But he's hardly alone there!

Unfortunately for the quality of material produced, the short head lefty sphere is (my impression) largely devoted to ranting, feelgood call-and-response and pep-rally stuff: reality-based, it ain't.

At least here, thankfully, reasoned pessimism and factual analysis has scope - though not quite invariably in the Stoller oeuvre... ;)


Did you even read the post that you linked to? (0.00 / 0)
It makes no mention whatsoever of the Bush Dog campaign.

The "Stollerism" as Sullivan defines it, does not involve purging your party or cause of alternative voices. What he describes is a rhetorical tactic in which one arrogantly attempts to end debate on a topic by simply declaring it over - perhaps citing polls, charts, or "right wing conspiracy" to back it up.

Your response bears little resemblance to the post it was presumably responding to.


Did you click the links? (0.00 / 0)
He links to the Bush Dog campaign as an example of purging.  And I can think of about a hundred debates that Stoller has started, but not a whole lot that he has ended, nor can I recall him referencing any right wing conspiracies.

I support John McCain because children are too healthy anyway.

[ Parent ]
Link to Bushdogs. (0.00 / 0)
At the beginning of the piece, where Sullivan talks about purging people, he links to the Bushdog campaign. And yes, he specifically talks about purging the party.
Matt has his rhetorical flourishes, which Sullivan apparently is riffing off of, but the whole tone of Sullivan's article was that he didn't brook dissent or listen to folks who disagreed with him, and that's just bullshit.

[ Parent ]
Not necessarily to agree with Sullivan here... (0.00 / 0)
...but I think you latched on to a flippant, offhanded, and ultimately inconsequential little part of the post, and ultimately missed his point. I think that I got his point better than you did.

[ Parent ]
The 11th commandment (0.00 / 0)
I love Matt.  He is a gem of a guy, humble, smart, engaging.  (Okay a little hyper, but that's a positive to me.)  I also have deep respect for his take on an issue; his writing not only informs but it also convinces. 

That said, I have often disagreed with his violation of the 11 commandment: "Thall shalt not attack other democrats."

I see the downside to my position: we would become progressive autocrats and little better than the Republicans we replaced.  (Moreover, who can abide our "ally" Lieberman?  He often, such as when the Lieberman-Kyl amendment comes up, deserves the full brunt of our scorn.)

That said, I would rather see attacks on Lieberman and worse democrats in power limited to the primary season than wake up every morning too find republicans still in control.

So, keep up the good work Matt.  But, could you please focus fire on the other side?


Kevin Sullivan 'Concern Troll'... (0.00 / 0)
Honestly, this sort of thing is such a waste of time.

Periodically some yahoo pops up and attacks someone, Stoller, Bowers, me.....

I could care less. I do understand the importance of pushing back at this sort of attack but, frankly, I'm glad you are around to do it.

I believe that part of the goal of this sort of attack is to waste our time and energy engaging in 'personality politics' and, in general, I don't get involved for that reason. I would say this....

I generally find Matt a good read and have no problem with him calling out folks on their hypocrisy or outright lies. The 'Bush Dog' meme is a good one which helps progressives advance our cause. I see a lot of confusion about why the 'Democrats' don't always act as we think Democrats should and this meme and the subsequent analysis has helped more than one person I know 'get it'.

So...

As to Mr. Sullivan?

I've shit him.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


Pushing back. (0.00 / 0)
I generally agree in terms of not spending much time on stuff like this, but this was too entertaining not to respond to. And I do think we have to have each other's backs.

[ Parent ]
"On the other hand..." (0.00 / 0)
Keep 'em coming.  We always need those, even when we don't want to hear them.

Purging Dissent vs Purging Sabotage (4.00 / 1)
I don't know that the Bush dog campaign is about purging dissent.  I see it as purging sabotage of the core values and goals of the Democratic Party. 

I recognize that there are differences in outcomes and beliefs within the party.  However there should be some non-negotiables that have been determined by the electorate.  Ending the Iraq war is such a non-negotiable and I see any Democrat that sabotages the attempt to end it as not being a loyal member of the party nor representing the people's interests.  I have no problem with them being primaried.  In fact I think it is essential that they be primaried.  I am concerned that the Democratic Party is being infiltrated by moderate Republicans whose values are not in line with the majority of the country.  I like the label Bush Dogs.  It says it like it is.

This is an aspect of Matt's work that I really applaud.

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Cringing and loving it (4.00 / 1)
I look back at some of my posts and wince at what I said in heated reply, and no purge here.

Stoller is one of the best kinds of thinkers--someone who makes you cringe a little, but whose ideas and remarks stick with you until think, sh*t he's right.

I find the best bloggers--here, Daily Kos--elswhere all do that. It leaves me wanting to make them cringe a bit too.

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The Stollerism | 12 comments
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