Drifting versus Choosing

by: Matt Stoller

Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 15:10


I've agonized about who I would support in the Presidential contest, and until yesterday, I wasn't rooting for any of them.  But I think I've made up my mind.  I realize it's taken a lot of time, and that might be frustrating to some; it has certainly frustrated me.  And yet there's a reason for this, illustrated well by Steve Clemons and his a must-read piece.  Clemons he gets to the heart of why picking someone is so difficult by recounting an anecdote from a friend of his who advises John McCain.

But this person who knows McCain better than most made the point that sometimes the "person" that the candidate is just doesn't matter all that much -- at some point, the candidate becomes a franchise of so many interests and perspectives, sometimes in internal conflict with one another, that what the candidate really thinks or feels becomes less important.

That is why I spend a lot of time looking at advisers, funders, and other interests that surround these candidates. Each is somewhat of a free trade zone unto himself or herself for political interests vying to steer him or her this way or that.

It's lousy that this is the case -- but it is, and we need to be engaged as American citizens in trying to compel the candidates one direction or another -- and to punish or reward based on the positions that they are occasionally brave enough to articulate.

I largely agree with Steve, except I don't think it's a lousy process.  Here's my thinking on the different candidates, and why at least now and just like Chris, I'll be rooting for a John Edwards win in the Iowa caucuses.

There are two basic pieces that frame my thinking on politics.  The first is the Bar Fight Primary.  If you believe we need a political realignment, as I do, or a different way of governing, then it's worthwhile to examine Reagan's career and his turn to change America.  In 1980, Ronald Reagan showed that he was willing to unify America, to change the way citizens thought about their relationship to their government.  Only, he was no centrist, he unified the country against liberals.  To start his campaign, he picked a fight against the civil rights movement, and the first thing he did in office was to illegally crush a union.  That is how you realign, through aggressive divisive persuasive arguments and actions.  Only Edwards has put forward an aggressive populist message, one conducive to the partisanship we need.  And while he has no strong political accomplishments and I'm not sure he'd run a good general election campaign, he's succeeding somehow in Iowa with almost no media focus and a deep hostility from DC (marked by his fundraising circles, which unlike those of Clinton and Obama are entirely driven by non-DC sources).  That is admirable, even if I don't fully understand how he's doing it.  And if he can keep doing it, that will neuter the DC Village, which is something we desperately need to do.

Obama is the only other candidate who could do this, but I do not think he will.  Though both he and Edwards have phenomenally good media and internet platforms, Obama's campaign is marked by cynical boasts about irrelevant non-accomplishments reigning in the power lobbyists and a fake aversion to the DC establishment that loves him and slathers him with cash.  He has gay-baited and sister souljah's liberals, and aggressively repudiated progressive ideas with statements like "I don't think in ideological terms. I never have."  His most recent right-wing attack is on John Edwards being a trial lawyer, but he has not hesitated to come at Clinton from the right.  There are also subtle differences between Edwards and Obama that mark Edwards more serious about progressive governance, like how Obama would restrict all lobbyists, while Edwards would only restrict corporate lobbyists.  And at the end of the day, unlike Dodd (who I would endorse if he were top-tier), both Clinton and Obama failed to do anything to stop the horrifically anti-American Military Commissions Act from passing in 2006 that legalized torture and got rid of habeast corpus; Obama deserves special scorn for his 2006 work and his abandonment of Ned Lamont, though Bill Clinton isn't far behind (Edwards came straight up to Connecticut after the primary victory, as did Wes Clark).

Matt Stoller :: Drifting versus Choosing
So in terms of the bar fight primary, Edwards comes out ahead.  He is the most loyal political figure to progressives, he is most willing to listen, and he will fight with us at least some of the time.  I do not think that Edwards is a perfect candidate.  I think he's got problems in understanding how to effectively attack the right and work the media, as evidenced by the mishandling of the haircut fiasco, and I don't see a lot of accomplishment there.  He hasn't built up any infrastructure in four years of running for office, and his signature issue, poverty, has gone nowhere.  So this is not an enthusiastic push for Edwards, but it is a statement that I would prefer he win over the others.

The second way I'm organizing my thinking about the Presidential contest is in terms of what the country needs.  I wrote about this in my piece on the the overall political architecture of our society, titled Five Untouchable Symptoms in which I outlined five large hurdles to a progressive country, like American empire and the war on drugs, that are not being addressed right now.  We live in a political culture that is driven by fear and war, with a military and an economy that grows and succeeds by high trust creativity and technological development.  This is not sustainable, and we will make a choice one way or another.  Keeping 2 million people in prison, many of whom are there simply because they used the same illegal substances something that the last two Presidents and many of our elites have done, and stationing troops in 144 countries around the world with no public debate on the matter and a creepily defined 'Department of Homeland Security', are clear paths to authoritarianism.  So are Blackwater and private armies, the legalization of torture, the end of habeas, a hedge fund world, and the corporate control of media.  These signposts do not mark a path to freedom.  On the other side, the internet, open politics, the new economy, the sustainable agriculture movement, millenial politics, and a pluralist globalized America are signposts to a progressive society marked by individual freedom and communitarian values.

America has a choice, to dismantle our war economy and to live in a healthy sustainable high trust world, or to drift lazily towards a sort of corporate PR-driven fascism.  The tools, whether inexpensive limitless solar power that can literally be printed out on sheets or immensely powerful data analysis spying systems that can identify and suppress dissent, exist for either.  Only Edwards, with his rejection of the war on terror frame and his statement that Americans need to be patriotic about something other than war, is even identifying the problem as a problem of the story we tell ourselves about who we are. 

Both Clinton and Obama believe the war on terror is real, and I believe they are sincere and will act on those impulses when in office.  Mark Schmitt has made the best counter-argument here, with the idea that Obama has a progressive theory of change.  Obama will act like a hard-nosed community organizer, so goes the theory, and sit Republicans on a committee with Democrats, and define the mission his way.  He will show that the Republicans act in bad faith rather than pick a fight right off the bat.  While certainly intriguing, for this to work, one assumption among many you must hold is that Obama shares your ends.  And since he does think that there is a war on terror, and progressives do not, if you are a progressive you have to assume that Obama is lying to get elected and will repudiate right-wing frames after he is elected.  I don't think that is wise.  I think it is just as likely that he will sit Republicans and Democrats down on a committee and define the committee mission his way: figure out how to 'win the war on terror'.

And that is not change, it is yet more drift towards lazy authoritarianism.  As for Clinton, there are really three episodes that foreshadow her Presidency: health care in 1993-1994, surviving the right-wing machine in the 1990s, and the war in Iraq.  Clinton has shown herself to be an extremely hard worker, exceptionally smart and a master of detail.  Her dramatic failure in 1993-1994 on health care has been analyzed to death, and you can cast blame, but on a basic level she just didn't get it done.  Her work on Iraq is just loathsome, both in her vote for the war, her John Kerry-like insistence she didn't vote for the war but voted for the authorization of force, her refusal to apologize, and her continued expressive conservative tendencies best illustrated by her reprehensible vote for the Kyl-Lieberman amendment to ratchet up tensions with Iran.  Dick Holbrooke said it best.

"She is probably more assertive and willing to use force than her husband," says Richard Holbrooke, the former envoy for Bill Clinton. "Hillary Clinton is a classic national-security Democrat. She is better at framing national-security issues for the current era than her husband was at a common point in his career."

With Hillary Clinton, we will get a continuation of Bush-Cheney militarism, albeit done more competently.  Once again, that is drift in the wrong direction.  On a positive note, Clinton's survival in the 1990s is meaningful.  Of the three contenders, she is the only one who has bested the conservative machine in an electoral circumstance.  And she has certainly helped more than any of them to build center-left infrastructure.  And yet, I think it's clear from her work on Iraq and her primary, that a Clinton campaign will be a slightly more competently managed repeat of Kerry, with viciously backbiting advisors, no message, a swing state strategy, and a frustrated base. 

Now, you might think at this point that I am being too harsh on Obama and Clinton, that implying they will move us towards a closed society is unrealistic.  And yet, it is undeniably true that both Obama and Clinton have embraced the main thrust of George Bush's frame for governance, the war on terror.  Terror is a tactic, and since the war on terror was initiated by George Bush, the number of terrorist incidents has skyrocketed.  It is not only wrong to believe that there is a war on terror, it is giving in to your worst instincts.  It is not fact-based, reality-based, or whatever you want to call it.  It is Bush-Cheney lite authoritarianism.  Period.  And that both Obama and Clinton embrace this frame shows just how far we must go to take over the Democratic Party.

Moving forward, it seems like Edwards has some shot to take the nomination, but it's not clear if he will.  I am impressed that he has gone as far as he has with relatively little money and establishment support.  At the same time, though I have clearly described larger issues at play and definitely argued for Edwards and against Obama and Clinton, if either of those were to win, I would endorse them heartily.  As Clemons notes, candidates are no so much people but confluences of difference interests marked by a set of specific personality traits.  And so while it is a simpler frame to believe that an electoral contest settles all questions, the reality is fortunately not so neat.  The day after Iowa, the day after New Hampshire, and in fact, every day of the election and the Presidency these interest groups will be fighting and organizing against and with each other.  And I intend to stay in that fray.

For now, it is Edwards whose set of interests are most conducive to a progressive realignment of the country.  Clinton is more of the same, and to genuinely believe in Obama as a progressive you must believe, as Schmitt does, that he is fundamentally deceitful and that deceit is a path to building progressive electoral power.  And yet, all of them are malleable and all are worth putting in office.

In other words, we are not electing a dictator, we are electing a President.  And that means that we have a responsibility to pay attention, to speak softly or yell, to get involved, to stay involved, and to vote, again and again.  America can drift into an extremely dark period, or we can build our dreams, it really is up to us and our choices.  While we debate the big ideas in the Presidential contest, we make the choice of defining who we are every day, even when our favorite candidate doesn't win, or even when George Bush is in office.


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Old news (0.00 / 0)
I was firmly under the impression that you had endorsed Edwards months ago and that you anti-Clinton so much so that you helped advertise a 527 for donations that was planning an attack against Clinton.

So why is this now news?


news (4.00 / 1)
Well it's not news, it's a blog post.  I hadn't actually chosen a candidate until yesterday. 

[ Parent ]
A Pleasant Surprise, Matt (4.00 / 2)
Interesting process of elimination, just as Chris did.  Markos is back on the fence.  Atrios at least supports Edwards in the Iowa caucus.  We'll see what he thinks afterwards.

From what I've been reading here at OL and when you were at MyDD, it sounds as though you and Chris were very skeptical of Edwards for a long time.  Now you are seeing that JRE is authentic and his progressive agenda is one that could bring the medicine for the healing process and bringing what is needed for our country: universal health care so that entrepreneurs like yourself won't have to pay out the wazoo and can make a decent living at what you do.  He will fight against media consolidation and continue making the Net a neutral place for all of our voices.

Edwards will unite the Democrats and even win votes from Indies and Republicans.  Yesterday on C-SPAN, 2-3 Republicans called in to tell Elizabeth Edwards that they would vote for her because they trust her husband will do the right things to keep them solidly in the middle class.  One even said if Edwards was not the Dem nominee, they would not choose another Dem to vote for.

Be prepared for hard times though, as many of us have been through them already.  But if you hang in there with us, and keep the message going, I think Edwards has a real chance to be our nominee.



[ Parent ]
Oops (0.00 / 0)
Republicans would vote for her spouse...not EE.



[ Parent ]
Way Too Much to Comment On (0.00 / 0)
But you say you are unsure about what kind of general election candidate Edwards would be - well I am not. He would make a terrible candidate. I supported him early on but he has ran a terrible campanign, made a lot of mistakes, and has no money!

If the general is about winning then you are backing the weakest candidate which I assume you know. So for you this is not about winning the WH - it is about ideology. Well IMO we are better off pushing the progressive agenda with a Democrat in the WH than a Republican. And that means we must win the WH instead of backing ideology at the cost of electoral success.

As for Clinton and healthcare in 1993-1994, I think most people know the reason that failed is because she overreached. She went for the whole enchilada at first bite instead doing it in increments. That said you are showing a double standard. In one breath you say Edwards is good because he chose a big fight as did Reagan in your example. But Clinton overreaches and picks a gigantic fight and instead of Edwards-like kudos you call her a failure. Your argument there lack some consistency IMO.

War Against Terror? I'm not sure what you are attaching to that phrase. Are you saying terrorism is not a threat or something we as a country should not be concerned with? If that is what you are saying then you are way out of mainstream. While domestically Americans have higher priorities, when it come to the federal government protecting us - and that is Job 1 - terrorism is at the top of the list and Americans will never elect a Dove in that respect. It trouble me that you seem willing to keep ceding that issue to the Republicans which have used it to beat us over and over again. Once again you seem to be more about idealogical and not winning. I don't know about you but I think 8 more years of wingnuttery in the WH does not get any of us any closer to where we want to go - domestically or globally.

Perhaps we like Hillary should learn a lesson. And that is going for the whole enchilada and ending up with an empty plate only leaves us hungry. Like Hillary, while going for the ideology as she did with healthcare is admirable - it left us with an empty plate and a decade and a half of the status quo healthcare wise(actually worse than the status quo).

Ideology is fine if your writing a book but in the real world, the political world, it is all about winning. If Edwards was a strong candidate with an strong organization which as you point out he is not - if his message was resonating nationally, and it's not - if he had the money to compete in the General, and he does not...

Then he would have a chance to win - - and he does not.

Ideology without a win in the WH does not forward anything we want. Not healthcare. Not environmental changes. Not change in global strategy (and no Clinton isn't Bush as you try to paint her). No Fair Trade. Nothing. Only winning the WH gives us any of those things.

But we all have choices. We can be dreamers and support our ideals and probably lose the WH. Or we can secure the position that matters most and additionally hold on to congress, both giving us the vessel to push our agenda.

One is a drive down a country road ending in a dead-end. The other is control of the super-highways of the world with the power to have a viable say in what vehicles go down those roads.

The choice to which is preferable and tangible is pretty clear to me...

Just Win Baby!


[ Parent ]
You know I followed the football team owned... (0.00 / 0)
..........by the unprincipled scumbag whose motto you have seen fit to claim. Two things....

The Raiders have been abject losers for over a decade.

The 'Democrat' Party whom you would be a strong supporter of based on your comment. A gaggle of clueless folks without any 'principle' other than 'elect me' have also been losers for even longer.

Coincidence?

Not really. Abraham Lincoln put it well:

I am not bound to win, but I am bound to be true. I am not bound to succeed, but I am bound to live by the light that I have. I must stand with anybody that stands right, and stand with him while he is right, and part with him when he goes wrong.

Let me get right to it, pal. Your comment here upon occasion and you're all fired up about 'winning'. Winning what? If Clinton or Obama win the nation will continue down the imperialist, Fascist, economically bankrupt path it's been of for forty years. Neither of them have any interest, as has been documented here repeatedly, in any significant change.

As to 'holding Congress' what we on the Progressive side have in Congress is and empty bag full of empty promises.

All of which assumes that either Clinton of a Obama would win. A fact not in evidence.

Also assumes either of 'em have 'coattails'; another fact not in evidence.

I will take my chances with a man who has worked far harder in his life than either Senators Cackle or same to help others in need rather than someone who's chief claim to fame is, 'I was married to the Presidend...' and a guy who can't seem to show up to vote for my civil rights.

So yeah, yell all you want about 'winning' there's only one real winner on the IA ballot.

John Edwards.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
Raiders (0.00 / 0)
You forgot they has a winning record in 2002 and played in the Superbowl in 2003. That's hardly a decade ago.

Just Win Baby has become pretty much a generic term. Yeah Al Davis coined it. So - it is a brilliant motto.

If Clinton or Obama win the nation will continue down the imperialist, Fascist,...

Oy Vey! You lost me with the rock throwing, window breaking talk of "imperialist, Fascist". When is the next meeting where you guys show-up and turn over cars and torch them?

Yeah Edwards - Champion Of The People. Except of course when he was in public office.

Edwards has no chance of winning the WH. If nothing else he has No Money. But that's OK with you. So what if the Republicans win again. Better that they lead us down the imperialist, Fascist, economically bankrupt path. As if neither Clinton or Obama never casted a liberal vote in their lives although the facts say different. According to you neither of them has a life long and verifiable record of supporting and advocating for Liberal causes although the facts say different.

Support who you want, you don't care about winning anyway. Me, I want to win so I want to see someone who has a chance of that get the nomination. Simple as that.

Just Win Baby!


[ Parent ]
You made a good choice (0.00 / 0)
If Hillary doesn't win the primaries, I will happily and ardently give John Edwards lots of my time and all the money allowed.

Unlike Barack Obama, I have no doubt that he's on the the right side with the right values.  He will try to promote progressive values and policies.  I expect no sistah souljah remarks from him. He doesn't rail against Washington or special interests nor does he classify unions or progressives as one of those special interests.

If you think about it,  Hillary also doesn't classify unions as special interests, but folks who are on our side and whose side we should be on.  Hillary also doesn't dis Democrats or progressive values.  It's one of the reasons why I have supported her.  She has shown that she can survive the MSM and RWC conspiracy and that is something that one should worry about with John Edwards.

Nevertheless, both of them have the right values, principles and instincts. I would happily have either one of them as my nominee or president.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
This diary underscores your point. (4.00 / 1)
want John Edwards to take our case to the American people
by DesmoinesDem underscores the same point.

Edwards is the guy! 

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  


Hillary.. (0.00 / 0)
is not more of the same.

She will do her best to obtain universal healthcare using lessons learned from experiences in the 90's. Will the Republicans do that?

She will work for clean and renewable energy and energy independence. Will the Republicans do that?

Hillary will support and sign meaningful climate change legislation. Will the Republicans do that?

Hillary will nominate Supreme Court Justices that believe Roe v. Wade was correctly decided. Will the Republicans do that?

I think Hillary has the best chance of defeating the Republicans because, contrary to Obama's naive perspective, the Republicans will not join in a search for bipartisan solutions. Rather, they will pull out all of the stops to slime the Democratic candidate. I don't think Obama has it in him to effectively fight back. Hillary does.

I am not convinced Edwards knows how to do it either. Cheney ate his lunch during the 2004 Vice-presidential debate. Edwards rhetoric about taking on Washington, DC and the special interests also concerns me because it reminds me of Jimmy Carter. Though that red meat rhetoric  excites many in the hard core base of the Democratic party, I am afraid it will lead to presidency that crashes and burns in the first year and never recovers. I know many in the netroots believe he can pull it off but I am deeply skeptical.

Personally I think Hillary has both the realism and the pragmatism to actually make change actually happen.


You make the wrong contrasts (4.00 / 3)
Of course any Dem will do better than the Republicans, at least to some degree.  The question for the primary is which candidate will do the best among the Democrats.

I've believed what this blog post says today - Edwards is willing to fight and take on DC in a way that no other Dem is willing to do, and that this fight is necessary to change politics and government as usual.

If John wins in Iowa, we are in for a very interesting few weeks of the nomination...


Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. -- Martin Luther King, Jr


[ Parent ]
What If? (0.00 / 0)
"Of course any Dem will do better than the Republicans, at least to some degree."

Really? If it came down to the pro-war Clinton and the anti-war Ron Paul, would you be so sure?

I realize that Ron Paul is far from perfect, but my point is, neither is Clinton, and on the biggest issue of the day, Paul is right where Clinton is wrong. So, it would be a real dilly of a choice.


[ Parent ]
The "biggest issue of the day" (4.00 / 1)
Is not the biggest issue.  Anyone who operates under such an assumption is missing the boat.

John McCain opposes the GI Bill.

[ Parent ]
Let Me Rephrase (0.00 / 0)
The biggest issue of the day *over which the President actually has direct control.*

My biggest complaint in just about everyone's analysis of these candidates is that they're trying to judge the candidates on who is the most progressive across the board.

It doesn't matter who is most progressive across the board, it matters who is the most progressive *on the things that a President actually controls.*


[ Parent ]
Edwards beat Cheney in the debate (0.00 / 0)
You are repeating the revisionism of Fox News.

From a CBS poll

Forty-one percent of these uncommitted debate watchers said Edwards won the debate tonight. Twenty-eight percent said Cheney won. Thirty-one percent thought it was a tie.

Edwards won handily and knows how to debate well.  That IS his skill as a trial lawyer.

Join other progressives at EENRblog


[ Parent ]
Victim of expectations (0.00 / 0)
Edwards was expected to destroy Cheney in that debate, given his background, but merely won.  This has somehow, over time, grown into Cheney actually winning

As a longtime Edwards supporter(voted for him in my first primary in 04, will do so again, though I'm in PA so it doesn't matter), I'm of course pleased to see plenty of people online come around to him at the end.  It would have been more helpful a month or two ago, though.  I don't think the dynamics of the campaign or the candidates have changed radically from then to now


[ Parent ]
One of your best posts, Matt. I am switching to Edwards, too. (4.00 / 3)
I'd given money and had supported Obama.  However, I've flipped and now support Edwards.  I do not care if he hasn't enough money in a general election.  If the nominee's Romney, then he doesn't need it and wins anyway and if it's McCain, then they are even.

My partner and I each just gave Edwards some cash, today, the last day of the quarter to give.

Edwards 2008.

For some reason, it seems that Obama has some pathological and deep-seated psychological need for Republicans to like him.  Seriously.  It's weird.


What is the Presidency? (0.00 / 0)
Is it a mouthpiece, or is it a job? I think that ends up defining who you support. You believe that its main function is as a mouthpiece. I believe that it can be, but only in special circumstances, and with the right President. But any position can be a mouthpiece with the right person in the right situation. Newt Gingrich turned his Speaker of the House position into a national mouthpiece position, and it worked.

I see the Presidency as a job with clearly defined responsibilities. And I think that Obama is the best diplomat, and best foreign policy thinker, and on that I support him for President. He's not the best progressive, but I don't care.

I think that supporting Edwards for the President is to hope that the President can fix our broken Congress. It's like a death star strategy -- hoping that one well placed shot can blow up the whole corrupt system. We need a Congress that will stand up against the Republican machine. A President can't fix that problem. But a President does have strong authority in a few prescribed areas, and in those areas, I just think that Obama is the best one.

I would of course, vote for Edwards with a smile on my face, but it would be mostly because I like voting for flaming liberals, not because I think he could actually make a difference.


I'm not happy generally (0.00 / 0)
No one is really taking on the Progressive/Populist positions that won '06 overall.

But that said, I'm rooting for Edwards to win too because he's the closest one talking about working America and needing trade reform.  Anything that puts the spotlight on those corporate lobbyists who are really running the country (and special interests, which are often funded with corporate money), is doing a great service to the nation.  It's ruining the country, the root of all evil.

I cannot think of any bill signed into law in recent history that didn't have the "corporate seal of approval" on it frankly.

So your choice is approved.  I'm sure that makes your day!  ;)

(Dodd has written some very good amendments, legislation in favor of our national economic interests (read us) that of course was killed by corporate lobbyists, including L-1 guest worker Visa reform).

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


Fair Enough (0.00 / 0)
I've worked hard for Barack Obama.  I'm still surprised that so many people in the Netroots, who I have grown to respect, often seem to believe the very worst about him whenever Obama does or says anything controversial on the left.  Given Obama's background as a community organizer, professor and as the only serious to oppose the war his capacity to inspire & change the political debate I think he has earned the benefit of the doubt, at least occasionally.  It seems rare indeed that any major progressive blogger ever does anything but castigate Obama for some symbolic transgression.  Is it any wonder that his blog outreach has been lacking?

Matt's diary is well reasoned.  My one nit-pick is that I believe he misread what he characterized as "non-accomplishments reigning in the power lobbyists" -- Obama has a good record on ethics issues and he has campaigned on real change, as has Edwards.  Politicians are entitled to a little sales puffery and Obama's claim that he spearheaded the most important elhics reforms since Watergate is a little exaggerated but defensible.  I respect Matt's overall argument as well as his conclusion.

I decided that Edwards would not be my first choice as I read about his decision making process in favor of the war authorization vote.  He made the wrong choice based on political considerations.  Edwards was wrong on something that really mattered and wrong for the wrong reasons.

Anyway, I hope we are all torn further as the winnowing process begins and I hope to see more candidate arguments based on fundamental concerns, like the drift toward what Matt calls "lazy authoritarianism", what Bertram Gross called, "friendly facism."  I think Barack Obama can, and will, stop that drift in favor of a real open society -- (to paraphraise John Hlinko) the kind of America we were promised as kids. 

 


The only serious person to not back the war? (0.00 / 0)
Wow.  Did you just say that?

Man, I think I am going to run for the state legislature.  Who knew it was so prestigious?

For some reason, it seems that Obama has some pathological and deep-seated psychological need for Republicans to like him.  Seriously.  It's weird.


[ Parent ]
He was the only serious candidate... (4.00 / 1)
...who opposed the war, out of the top tier.  My error, the word "candidate" should have been in there.  Of course, lots of serious people opposed the war, like Russ Feingold & Ted Kennedy, to name just two.

[ Parent ]
btw, i like Obama and prefer him over HRC, but we need (4.00 / 2)
to stop making him sound like a deity.

For some reason, it seems that Obama has some pathological and deep-seated psychological need for Republicans to like him.  Seriously.  It's weird.

[ Parent ]
It would help if he stopped presenting himself (0.00 / 0)
as one. I mean I know that Harvad Law Review and Columbia aren't bupkes, and that he has no control over the unreasoning, cult-of-personality way people react to him, but I've pored over the resume and the voting records and he's just not that effective a legislator, and the "leadership" thing escapes me altogether and even smacks of entitlement. This guys should seriously consider getting over himself.

[ Parent ]
Once again the big picture is ignored, by progressives (0.00 / 0)
I agree with your post, except, what you are ignoring is the reality that will emerge with a win by Edwards.
Even if Edwards wins Iowa and N.H., he will not get the nomination. The least progressive candidate and her DLC machine and enablers will have won. The Hoyer/Emanuel thugish wing of the party are laughing their asses off right now. A big gamble was taken by Edwards and Obama by splitting the anti DLC/Clinton vote. I think the writing is beginning to appear on the walls, that that bet is lost.
I am really sad to read this post,and the responses, not because I don't reapect them, or because I totally disagree, but the really smart and articulate progressives like yourselves, who are in a position to change minds of your readers have decided on this position.
I hope I am wrong, because I could support an Edwards presidency very easily. I hope that whatever happens, we don't see the loss of getting the WH, which should have been so easy this time. But I just cannot see the majority of people putting a Clinton back in the WH that is unless the other choice is Huckabee.
VERY SAD!

If Edwards wins both IA and NH ... (4.00 / 2)
don't you think that will change the race a lot? .. all the sudden .. Clinton doesn't seem to inevitable .. does she?  .. also .. I think a lot of Obama supporters will switch to Edwards if he wins the first two .. also .. I think a lot more unions will get behind Edwards if he wins early

[ Parent ]
That's an impressive talent you have (4.00 / 1)
Seeing into the future with such certainty.

John McCain opposes the GI Bill.

[ Parent ]
I think we need to ask him (4.00 / 2)
or her to pick the next powerball winning numbers for us. Their abilities to predict these things in face of previous electoral outcomes showing the impact of IA and NH being different from what they argue is truly amazing. One might almost call it delusional.

[ Parent ]
We shall see WON'T we (0.00 / 0)
Happy New Year, I am not going to sink to your level of name calling.
You obviously are so unsure, you can't just stae YOUR opinions without an attack.

[ Parent ]
got to love the passive agressive fear factor approach (0.00 / 0)
happy halloween to you too.

[ Parent ]
What is the "war on terror"? (0.00 / 0)
Very thoughtful post.

Several times you say that you prefer Edwards because he doesn't think the war on terror is real, but Obama and Clinton do.  The first time, I believe, that you mention this you say that you like Edwards because he rejects the "war on terror" framing, and maybe this is more what you really mean.  But it is a little too shorthand, maybe.

There is a "war on terror", and it is very real.  It is the empire- and executive power-building program of the Bush Admin, and it needs to be confronted and dismantled in some reasonable fashion. 

There is also "terror" in the world, it is very real, and some of it is perpetrated by us.  As you say, terror is a tactic, and one can't have a war on a tactic, only on other people, or maybe other ideas.  The fundamental problem is that the Bush/Cheney regime has used fear, and in some instances terror, as tactics, and tried to mobilize us against enemies real and imagined to keep themselves in power, all the while remaining mostly clueless about what the real threats we face are and how to deal with them.  I think this is what Clemons is getting at.

On who understands and can articulate what these real threats are and how we can deal with them, I'd say Hillary has a pretty good understanding, but I differ with her on priorities and on what America's interests in the world really are.  I agree she's too hawkish.  Obama's unique background and perspective lets him see the US as a country among countries, and I think he understands at a visceral level that it is not always all about the US, but other peoples have their own interests and points of view and that has to be respected.  But he lacks Hillary's grasp of details and relationships with foreign leaders.  He does get (and give) mixed messages from his different advisers.  Edwards is obviously smart (they all are demomstrably more so than the GOPers) and I do like his populism.  But I think he has less experience/background than the other  in foreign affairs, and basically he did nothing when he was on the intel committee.  Who advises him is crucial.

I agree with Clemons that they are all imperfect, though better than the GOP choices, and I wish we had a clearer idea of who they might pick as a VP or Sec of State. 

I've given to both Edwards and Obama, and will make a final choice if the CA primary still means anything. But the bottom line is that any of the three could do the job, and all of them better than any of the GOPers.  All of them deserve our support in the general. 

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


You're hanging a whole lot of argument on a rather thin peg, right here: (4.00 / 1)
And since he does think that there is a war on terror, and progressives do not, if you are a progressive you have to assume that Obama is lying to get elected and will repudiate right-wing frames after he is elected.  I don't think that is wise.  I think it is just as likely that he will sit Republicans and Democrats down on a committee and define the committee mission his way: figure out how to 'win the war on terror'.

And that is not change, it is yet more drift towards lazy authoritarianism.

Now, you might think at this point that I am being too harsh on Obama and Clinton, that implying they will move us towards a closed society is unrealistic.  And yet, it is undeniably true that both Obama and Clinton have embraced the main thrust of George Bush's frame for governance, the war on terror.  Terror is a tactic, and since the war on terror was initiated by George Bush, the number of terrorist incidents has skyrocketed.  It is not only wrong to believe that there is a war on terror, it is giving in to your worst instincts.  It is not fact-based, reality-based, or whatever you want to call it.  It is Bush-Cheney lite authoritarianism.  Period.  And that both Obama and Clinton embrace this frame shows just how far we must go to take over the Democratic Party.

You hang an awful lot of your argument on this bit of proof-by-example, and to me at least, I don't think the "war on terror" angle is anywhere near as significant or meaningful as it appears to you.

I don't think the back-and-forth on this subject between the campaigns or the outside thinkers has been all that well-developed.  If there was a big War on Terror exchange where the various campaigns committed themselves publicly to meaningful and distinguishable ideas, I missed it.  If there was a big exchange in the broader political realm, where two or three big ideologies made their positions clear, and it's now possible to associate yourself with or against an entire robust stream of thought simply by uttering a dog-whistle phrase like "Intelligent Design" or "Strict constructionism", I missed that too.

I don't think that has actually happened here with this issue though.  "War on Terror" is a bad idea, I guess... I say that because it strikes me as bad on first blush and I also haven't read much of any organized cases for or against it anywhere.  It's a big, puffy, useless, vague bit of bad terminology, that means almost anything and therefor also means almost nothing.  It's probably not the best phrase to be throwing around, but none of our constituency groups have drawn a hard line on it, and so continuing to use it isn't a deliberate rhetorical slap at any of our constituencies (whereas residual forces and permanent bases both are real and explicitly adopted issues of organized progressive constituencies, for example).

It's possible that I just missed the whole damn conversation, but the fact that Obama has been willing to use the "war on terror" idea somewhat (he's hardly running on it, but he hasn't run against it certainly), while Edwards has been willing to run against the idea somewhat (I don't think he's run terribly hard on the issue either, though I'm not signed up for his press releases I suppose), just doesn't say that much to me.  Obama has kindof used this piece of rhetorical furniture that was lying around, and Edwards has made a little bit of a show of not caring for the piece of rhetorical furniture, but the not-much-action surrounding this issue suggests to me that it's not a very significant or meaningful difference in their campaigns or personalities.

Now if you're using "war on terror" as a super-phrase like "strict constructionism", to indicate the authoritarian response to problems that has been so central to the Bush admin and that has been sometimes ascribed to Hillary's personality as well, then, yeah, that phrase does indicate something that is a very big deal.  But, I don't think "war on terror" has graduated to highly-meaningful-and-specific-super-phrase, such that Obama's use of the phrase indicates his acceptance of and agreement with a whole specific mindset.  I'm pretty confident in that.  So concluding that Obama is an authoritarian because he continues to use this phrase (in fact, concluding much of anything at all about anyone because they continue to use this phrase) strikes me as reaching an awful lot.  Which is why I say this particular argument is hung on an awfully thin branch.

========

Now it's true that the underlying issue, the authoritarian mindset and associated military-surveillance-economy, versus the sortof Open Left vision of the future, is a big deal.  But on that subject, I'd have to say we don't really know where Obama is on the issue, but he probably is deeply personally sympathetic to the Open Left because that's who he is personally, and he's probably a member of the Open Left going out there and trying to seize power by making sufficient accomodation with the old authoritarian powerstructure, in which project he might do very well and might fail miserably.  Hard to know.

Whereas Edwards is trying to declare war rather than make accomodations, and is trying to actually ride the war-cry into the position of power.

Generally speaking, I'd say the Obama course makes it easier to get into office, and more likely that you fail utterly when you get there, while the Edwards course makes it much harder to get into office, but somewhat less likely to be fatally compromised in the event you actually succeed in getting there.  Beyond that extremely obvious observation, I think it's damn hard to know which strategy will work better.  It probably depends more on the relative skill of the executors of the strategy, than it does on the strategies themselves.  I think success or failure attends either in roughly equal odds.

I think if we had two more years of Bush/Establishment rule, the Edwards strategy would be the obviously superior one.  I think if the economy had collapsed already, instead of being in the early less-visible stages of collapse, the Edwards strategy would be the obvious one.  But with the Establishment not yet totally discredited a la 1932, and with them still being rather strong, the Obama strategy has merits still.

It's damn hard to know.  I still don't know who I'm voting for.  Fortunately, by the time California votes on Feb 5th, I'm sure I'll have only one anti-Clinton to choose from.


If one believes realignment is possible... (0.00 / 0)
then all of your arguments in favor of Edwards make sense.  I know most of the authors here are hopeful and seem at least a little optimistic about realignment.

I'm hopeful but very pessimistic.

In his 2004 election post-mortem, I believe Markos stated that he thought it would take 10 or more years to build an effective progressive movement.  I also recall him stating that any short term gains for the Democratic Party (2006, 2008) would likely not be fully in support of this movement and that the 10+ year timeline would still hold.

*caveat: this is a huge paraphrase based purely on my memory*

These statements or positions by Markos rang true to me back then, and they still do.  He was merely echoing something I was already thinking about.

So even if many of the political environmental factors exist for realignment, which Paul, Chris and Matt have outlined, I still believe the political infrastructure, i.e. Blue Dogs in Congress, would seem to work against realignment.

I'm sure many would blast me for this, but I see Edwards as the new Jimmy Carter.  Carter, for those of you who have studied the 1976 election and those of you who were around to see it like me, had a very populist campaign.  Like Edwards, he was a conservative southerner who turned populist on both the campaign trail and in the White House.

The problem was, his fellow southern Democrats (precursors to Blue Dogs) in Congress weren't willing to follow his lead.  So we had a Democratic White House and Congress that did not work well together.  The public picked up on this bad vibe and swept Democrats out of both the White House and Senate.

Obama, to me, is looking more and more centrist.  I want realignment.  I want a progressive President.  But I fear Edwards is before his time.  I'm sure this will make no sense to most progressives, but I believe a centrist Obama might be a better bridge to the progressive realignment that we're working toward, down the road.

There's also the potential that Obama would move leftward as we work to change the complexion of Congress.  If we can get folks like Mark Pera and Donna Edwards to win primaries, it's another building block for us.  If we can get more progressives like Darcy Burner elected this time around, that's yet another building block.  Have 2 or 3 more Congressional elections like 2006 and we might eventually get to Markos' promised progressive takeover.

But I fear that if we elect Edwards and he fails in passing a progressive agenda, we might lose an opportunity for another complete generation.

Note, I'm not a fervent Obama supporter.  I have only come around to believing he might be the right choice over the last 2 weeks or so.  And this belief is a very muddy one.  All of the criticisms leveled at Obama by the authors here in Open Left have been more or less correct, in my view.  I'm just not sure it builds enough of a case to alternately support Edwards.


Under your thesis, it would have been a mistake to elect FDR. (4.00 / 1)


For some reason, it seems that Obama has some pathological and deep-seated psychological need for Republicans to like him.  Seriously.  It's weird.

[ Parent ]
A drive-by comment gets rated a "4"? (0.00 / 0)
And the original comment "nothing"?

Not that I give 2 hoots about the rating system.  It just doesn't speak well to the people reading through the comments.

I'll probably get flamed to hell for this, but I love reading Matt, Chris, Paul, Mike Lux and the other authors.  But I have been pretty disappointed by the general comments around here whenever I take the time to go through them.


[ Parent ]
About that hair. You wrote: (0.00 / 0)
I think he's got problems in understanding how to effectively attack the right and work the media, as evidenced by the mishandling of the haircut fiasco
Snip

I think this so-called fiasco came from the same evil manufactory as The Dean Scream.  It's nothing more than the MSM "cataputing the propaganda" to bring down what they perceive to be a dangerous candidate. Like asking, "when did you stop beating your wife", the haircut "issue" is, by design, hard to quell. How should he have handled it?


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