Biggest Political Surprise Ever?

by: Mike Lux

Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:53


Okay, that might be stretching it. Truman beating Dewey almost certainly beats it. But I can't remember ever being this stunned by an election result. Every indication was that it seemed headed toward a big Obama win.

You know, I got into politics to make the world a better place. But I also am not ashamed to admit it, I also love the game. Voters are independent cusses, and you just never know what they are going to do next, the rascals.

Here are some post-NH thoughts on the state of the race.

1. Each election has its own dynamics. I love fladem's historical data analysis, and I've used the averages she has developed in my analysis a lot. But her own chart here shows how wildly different the dynamics are in each race. A swing of 40 points in one race and 5 in another gives you a 22.5% average, but it certainly doesn't meant the 3rd election will have a 22.5% swing. Gary Hart's massive surge in 1984 came because so many Democrats in the country were looking for an alternative to Mondale, and his fade later was the result of his own mistakes over the course of the campaign. Other races had a different set of dynamics.

What NH showed is that, momentum and long-term trends aside, what happens in the course of a campaign really does matter. Voters are not sheep, and they are watching this campaign closely and making up their own minds. Hillary worked her ass off in NH, played to her strength- which is substance on the issues- showed her warmth and sincerity, and the voters were paying attention and liked that they saw.

2. Never, ever, ever count the Clintons out. As I discuss below, I still believe Obama is the most likely to win this race in the end, but the thing that always amazed me when I was working for the Clintons, and since then, is that they never give up, they are remarkably resourceful, they are tough as nails, and they are at their best when they are in the worst trouble. While I think the overall dynamic favors Obama, I would never bet real money against the Clintons.

3. The conventional wisdom now shifts back to the Clintons, but the dynamic in this race still favors Obama. Every campaign has one major question that is the biggest question for voters to answer. In the 2004 primary, it was who has the best chance of beating Bush, and primary voters decided, wrongly as it turned out, that it was Kerry. This year, that question is, who is most likely to deliver real change. I still think that over the course of a long campaign, Obama has a clear edge with voters on that question. And, by the way, that question is especially dominant with women voters, so Obama doesn't have to keep losing the women's vote to Hillary.

4. Both of these campaigns still have to overcome big flaws. You have to give both of these campaigns credit for impressive victories, and for coming from behind when everyone was writing them off. But they are both handicapped by big flaws.

Mark Penn has never understood what this race was about, and has left the Clinton campaign with an experience vs. change frame which is fundamentally wrong for the 2008 election. Clinton should not let herself be lulled by this upset victory into thinking that all is well in Hillaryland. They still need to rebuild their message if they want to win over the long haul.

Obama's message about change has become more mono-syllable than Edwards' pure populism. He has to show he has the grit and substance to actually deliver real change, not just preach about it. Part of the reason he kept things on such an inspirational level in the NH primary was caution: he wants to avoid making mistakes. But caution is a killer for a change message. He needs to retool as well.

5. Edwards could become the kingmaker. Edwards is dead as a Presidential prospect for 2008, but if this becomes a long, drawn out, fairly evenly-divided fight, and Edwards stays in and keeps drawing around 20% everywhere he goes, he could be the guy who decides the nominee. I could easily see this playing out where Obama wins a bunch of states and Clinton wins a bunch, and they both end up with about 40% of the delegates, and Edwards keeps playing to the end of the primary process and then delivers his 20% to one of them. Could make things interesting right up to convention day.

Mike Lux :: Biggest Political Surprise Ever?

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All Great Points (0.00 / 0)
But this is the one that really speaks to me the most:

Obama's message about change has become more mono-syllable than Edwards' pure populism. He has to show he has the grit and substance to actually deliver real change, not just preach about it. Part of the reason he kept things on such an inspirational level in the NH primary was caution: he wants to avoid making mistakes. But caution is a killer for a change message. He needs to retool as well.

It's actually possible that if Clinton keeps pushing hard and effectively, and Obama responds creatively and intelligently, I could end up supporting him.  Without sufficient challenge, he simply has not been explicit enough for me to even know what I would be supporting.

So, struggle is a good thing.

p.s.  Don't forget McCarthy's strong second place finish in NH in 1968, which forced LBJ to withdraw.  That still has to rank as a bigger surprise than this.  And more consequential.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


Ditto. (0.00 / 0)
Great points yourself. Struggle is generally a good thing, and the McCarthy showing was a huge surprise.

[ Parent ]
A Couple Of Points (0.00 / 0)
One is that Penn knew what he was doing. He just didn't know that in Iowa, repeat, Iowa, one state, they would respond to Change as they did. Now he knows that is a valid theme.

Therefore as Clinton did in the final days of NH, she fine tuned her 'change' message and it worked. You can be sure she will tune it up some more as there are several new people joining her campaign. She also, as she said last night, has "found her voice" by listening to the voters. There is her 'direct connection' that was missing. That co-opts some of that space from Obama.

Another dynamic in Iowa is that proportionately the college vote made up a large percentage of the electorate in a very thinly populated state. That will not be the case in the larger states to come. The general population is much larger in those states in proportion to the college population so that advantage is diluted.

And we are no longer in a retail atmosphere as we were in Iowa and to a lesser extent in NH. That is a disadvantage to Obama who used his community organizing skills to flip undecideds. You could see him doing that in video of his smaller appearances. That's no longer possible.

Here is what is shaping up. Clinton owns the Experience space and captures part of the Change space from Obama. Obama on the other hand loses part of the Change space to Clinton and can't touch her in the Experience space. Advantage Clinton - because she is in a better position to co-opt the opponents message.

Also Obama killed himself by lying to the world about his NH campaign manager being a lobbyist. If I'm Clinton I 30 second spot that as one of my negative ads from now until Obama is toast.

Lastly, I am probably the only one posting on the blogs who has said this, because of the compressed primary schedule and the fact that states wanted to be relevant, the people of each state are not going to be led as easily as in the past on how to vote by the prior results of other states. You can't be relevant by being a sheeple and I think the relevancy factor is going to throw a new dynamic into this that we haven't seen in the past.


[ Parent ]
College/Non-College (0.00 / 0)
Another dynamic in Iowa is that proportionately the college vote made up a large percentage of the electorate in a very thinly populated state. That will not be the case in the larger states to come. The general population is much larger in those states in proportion to the college population so that advantage is diluted.

I think it's more complicated than that.  I've talked to a bunch of youth vote folks, and I think that Clinton's win in the 25 - 29 bracket may have been due to college graduates leaving NH to live in regional metropolitan area.  So non-college youth were a disproportionate part of the 25 - 29 bracket in NH. Hillary has always done much better among that group than Obama.

This will no be the case in major cities like New York, San Francisco, LA, etc.  That's where college educated youth flock too. 

And remember, this isn't just about "college kids."  Young people attending university only make up about 20% of the total "youth vote."

I wouldn't be surprised to see Obama perform better than expected.

That said, Hillary is starting to push for this demographic hard.  It' will be fun to watch them duke it out for young voters.

Youth To Power: How Today's Young Voters Are Building Tomorrow's Progressive Majority


[ Parent ]
Time Will Tell (0.00 / 0)
But my gut tells me that in the youth vote a majority of those that do vote attend college. And that a majority that attend college don't vote because they are not into politics. And that the youth that don't attend college don't vote either.

Bottomline is that if Obama has to depend on a bunch of inexperienced teeners and twenty-somethings who are not even self-providing adults yet to propel him into the WH that is a sad commentary.

If you are 30-35 plus how many important decisions in your personal life would you hand over to a teenybopper? Would you hand them your checkbook or credit card and let then handle that for you? Would you let them decide what kind of car to buy and how much to spend on it? Would you let them decide on which health care plan to buy. Would you let them pick you investments?

Well if you are smart you probably answered NO to all of the above. So if you would not allow them to handle your finances why would you want them to pick your President?

Theirs is an emotional decision in who they support. They do not yet have the experiences to make sound judgments on matters of State. That's just the truth.


[ Parent ]
Ridiculous (0.00 / 0)
Wow is that the most sorry and cynical thing I've heard.

So all the veterans and active soldiers don't vote and don't have the mental capacity to know who to vote for?

So it's cool with you if 25% of the eligible electorate (18 - 29 year olds) don't vote, even though they've picked Democrats 2 - 1 in the last two years?

That's a recipe for future youth apathy and a great way to short circuit the progressive movement for the next 50 years.  As someone under 30 I'm offended.

Youth To Power: How Today's Young Voters Are Building Tomorrow's Progressive Majority


[ Parent ]
Uh Slow Down Mr. Emotional (0.00 / 0)
Nowhere did I say that anyone shouldn't vote.

[ Parent ]
Bullshite (4.00 / 1)
You are assuming that older Americans voters have more political experience and awareness.  If that were true why the hell are we in the mess we are in.....

it is about being informed about reality (facts, stats, legislation) and not buying into spin and MSM.

Do I think the younger voters are more informed?  Possibly not, but I can see them attempting to become informed through the web and asking difficult questions much more then all of us who are older. 

Right now most people are making *emotional* decisions, because they don't have trustworthy access to information.

I think the youth vote is more likey to be suspicious of the spin and b.s. in our media. Older folks are not rebelling against the insane pundits in the MSM so I sure the hell don't trust them.

Stop assuming youth=ignorance.  And stop using the term "teenybopper" it is offensive, polarizing, and demeaning.


[ Parent ]
What? (0.00 / 0)
"You are assuming that older Americans voters have more political experience and awareness. "

Well simple math tells you they have more experience. Can't you add?

Let's say you are 21. Now compare that to when you were 18. Are you saying that in the three years after 18 you are not more experienced and aware today than you were then?

Are you saying that today is as experienced as you will ever be? That you will have no more experience or awareness at 35 than you do at 21? No more experience or awareness at 50 than you did at 35?

Are you really saying that? Of course you are not. But because of your argument you are showing that you don't stop to think what you are saying or doing. Now do you understand why I don't want 20 somethings being the deciding factor in an election. You are full of emotion and little else.


[ Parent ]
I hope you're right about that. n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
How does Edwards do it? (0.00 / 0)
What is the mechanism that would allow Edwards to give his votes away?

Pledged delegates... (0.00 / 0)
Edwards says to Obama (or Clinton, but I see that as highly unlikely), "I will direct all of my delegates to vote for you if you make me VP," for example.

I don't think it'll come to that, but I've thought about it.

Further Reading


[ Parent ]
Edwards' delegates. (4.00 / 1)
Edwards can't force his delegates to go anywhere, but the pledged delegates to a candidate are generally the ones most loyal to both the candidate and their vision of politics. If Edwards asked them to go someplace with him, it would be awfully compelling to those people.

[ Parent ]
He can also endorse Obama at some point (0.00 / 0)
And campaign with him in remaining states.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
too big a difference (4.00 / 3)
Edwards appears to be happy to support Obama tactically, but I think his issue positions are too far from Obama's for him to endorse. As are Clinton's. But he is not anti-Clinton, I expect him to continue campaigning hard and pulling the other two in his ideological direction.

[ Parent ]
Get Real (0.00 / 0)
Campaign with him? Edwards either sticks with this until the end, if for no other reason than to hammer home his points and set himself up for an Attorney General in some state leading to a run for Governor, or he quits and goes spends time with Elizabeth and the family.

[ Parent ]
No, I think Obama is in big trouble (4.00 / 4)
Not because he flamed out in NH -- far from it -- but because from here on out most of the primaries are closed. I don't think he can win a Dems-only fight with Clinton, especially if Edwards can't maintain 20% state after state (and after a while, that becomes very hard to do).

But... (0.00 / 0)
...if Edwards doesn't maintain 20%, one would think his supporters would go over to Obama. Now of course that may not pan out. But as an Edwards supporter in a Super Duper Tuesday state, I'm kind of wondering what's gonna transpire over the next couple weeks.

"I think the economic logic behind dumping a load of toxic waste in the lowest wage country is impeccable and we should face up to that."
-Lawrence Summers


[ Parent ]
Hard to tell. (4.00 / 1)
He beat Hillary among Dems in IA, and if black voters keep moving his way, he could win a lot of closed primary states in the south and midwest.

[ Parent ]
Iowa Dems - Real Iowans (0.00 / 0)
are a different breed than nationally. And in addition a lot of those Dems in Iowa were represented by a disproportionate amount of "non-Iowan" college students. Take them out of the equation and you have a closer tally in the vote.

[ Parent ]
Iowans. (0.00 / 0)
I lived in IA for most of a decade, and I don't see IA Dems as being such a different breed than Dems elsewhere.

[ Parent ]
Obama is ok (4.00 / 4)
First, the CA primary is closed for the GOP BUT NOT FOR DEMS.  People registered DTS can choose to vote in the CA Dem primary, but not the GOP one.  Moreover, registration remains open for another 2 weeks.  So even assuming that there are indies in CA who might be choosing between McCain and Obama, that won't happen. 

Second, I think what the pollsters missed was the fluidity of the race.  One graphic said that 51% of the Dems made up their minds awhile ago. That left only 49% to be affected by Iowa and events after that.  Many thus were still making up their minds during the polling, and probably went back and forth when pushed.

Third, what tipped it to Hillary I think was not her tearing up in the cafe itself, but the way a hostile and shallow media flogged it and discussed it in very misogynistic terms.  I am an Obama supporter, but I happen to believe that she was just tired and really does kind of feel blindsided that the voters don't seem to appreciate how hard she's worked and how much she cares, and are now going for the guy with the pretty face.  I found a lot of the coverage offensive.  If I hadn't been for Obama for months, as an older woman I might well have voted for her just to stick it to those pontificating asshats.  The media really needs to get a grip on their shallowness and biases.

Fourth, Obama showed, in the fact that he got his speech on first, incorporated many of the criticisms of his campaign ( i.e., 'I will let the drug companies come to the table, but the days when they can buy all the seats are over') and retooled his message to "Yes we can," which is a labor slogan and a Latino slogan (Si se puedes) from the United Farmworker days as he goes into states with large Latino populations, that he and his people are constantly thinking ahead and flexible around their main themes. much more so than Hillary.  He was so inspiring and such a contrast to the cynicism all around him on the airwaves.  Then she came on. She was flat and every other word was "I".  And there was Bill looming behind and beside her. 

He's probably got more money, certainly the next several states will be younger and less white and I think the terrain will be favorable to him.  I am anxious to see what Edwards and his supporters will do.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
Yeah, Like THAT'LL Happen! (4.00 / 1)
The media really needs to get a grip on their shallowness and biases.

Flying pigs, anyone?

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Matthews is being savaged today (0.00 / 0)
At least Left Blogostan, from TAPPED to Kos, thinks Matthews et al tipped it to Hillary. I agree.  If there is anything that could change them, it might be the thought that they could give her the Presidency by continuing to pile on.  But they are too shallow and self-absorbed to see it, and like Matthews this am, probably just think it makes them more important!

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
Great, I agree, and one other point (0.00 / 0)
Great commentary.

And my only addition re: future of race is - if the Edwards 20% kingmaker scenario is to play out, it means a large block of D voters across the country *know* that this is what's happening and act to sustain it.  For conventional "for him to win" Edwards supporters will probably rapidly give up supporting him.

The kingmaker scenario would be fascinating and I'd like to see it happen. But I doubt it.

I want to see Penn gone, I want to see a Hillary narrative.


[ Parent ]
The Next State Is Michigan (4.00 / 1)
where he isn't even on the ballot. I'm not so sure a guy who isn't smart enough to leave his name on a ballot belongs in the WH.

There is idealism which can bring you a lot of trouble and then then there is being strategically and tactically smart in the face of idealism - which is what being President requires. Obama flunked that test.


[ Parent ]
He's not smart? (0.00 / 0)
Yeah, that Yale stuff and professorship stuff is proof that Obama isn't smart.

Love how in the post above you congratulated yourself for something that I heard before. 

At least you didnt insult anyone in this thread. 

I can disagree with your tactical and strategic calls (I do) but I won't call you stupid. 


[ Parent ]
Yale? (0.00 / 0)
What does that prove? Didn't Bush go to Yale? LOL

I got news for you - academic smarts does not always equate to real world or street smarts. I've had more than a few PhDs work for me in the past and outside their field of expertise they weren't too smart.

Look at Dr. Rice. Miss PhD. Her real world accomplishments outside of academia and not all that impressive. Plus she is a conniver and a lair. higher education does not always equate to higher intelligence.

Yale! Yale has produced many real world under achievers.

Face it. Ditching Michigan was not only not smart - it was a bonehead move. We already have a bonehead in the WH.


[ Parent ]
you need to elaborate (0.00 / 0)
Of course, I agree with you on credentialism.

But do you really think Obama is a dumb guy?  Really?  I think that is a far-out judgement.

Tell me what you think his specific intellectual weaknesses are and cite examples ASIDE from campaign tactics - that's no metric of intelligence, mistakes are always made.

Certainly he has a lot of friends and admirers who are heavyweights, with intellects beyond dispute.

I don't think you have a leg to stand on here, and at a minimum neither you or I (I assume) know him. 

But I'd love to hear you defend this.


[ Parent ]
Quit Blurring What I Said (4.00 / 1)
I said "I'm not so sure a guy who isn't smart enough to leave his name on a ballot belongs in the WH."

And I'm not. How do you win if you don't compete? That is not smart.

I said he wasn't "strategically and tactically smart" in his decision to skip Michigan. And he wasn't. If you think that was smart then explain why it was smart.

You know the truth of the matter is here is that if Obama was running in Michigan and Clinton was not then all of you kool-aide drinkers would be busting on Clinton for being a bonehead.

Well that works two ways - and in this case we know who is the bonehead.

I don't want another bonehead in the WH. Apparently you do.
Except of course, his bonehead move could be the one that keeps him out of the WH.


[ Parent ]
put money where mouth is (0.00 / 0)
and by the way, as long as you're bragging about Phd's working for you and your decades of campaign experience.....

I know a lot of political consultants here in CA, and I'm curious to know how deep your experience goes.  Tell me what races you worked on and in what capacity, and in what states.  Tell me

My on the ground experience is light, btw, but I have been a paid staffer.  Here's one of my emails - b3456 insert the 'at' sign, at the mail site where the mail is hot. 


[ Parent ]
Dude (0.00 / 0)
I'm not posting my resume. I'm remaining anonymous thank you.

Obviously my posts show some sense for politics. Agree with them or not, I don't care, but I don't see too many good arguments against them. In fact when people ignore a point of view that is well thought out it usually means they have no answer. As does when they post nonsense as a response.


[ Parent ]
argument by assertion (0.00 / 0)
you "argue by assertion" constantly.  you make tenuous links between opinion by fact.

and I see you're backing down after challenging me on campaign experience and age, thinking that I'm some whippersnapper.

I've also worked on state and metro grassroots campaigns - at the senior, strategic level, as well as managed crisis communications, message development and media relations for major national foundations, CA state nonprofits and advocacy groups, in the issue areas of environmental protection, education, health care/health insurance, and hunger/foodbanks (legis comm strategy)

I can be more specific if you want.  I've also worked and am working in the private sector.


[ Parent ]
So? (0.00 / 0)
So who cares what you think about my arguments? You offer opinion with fact in your posts but I'm not supposed to? Well that tells me all I need to know about you.

You can't make any good arguments about what I say so you revert to critiquing how I argue and not debating the argument itself. So you lost the argument right there. Then when that doesn't work you try to get into a personal pissing contest and want to match resumes. Good on you for what you do in the political realm if it is true but a personal pissing contest is not what I care to engage in. I'm here to express opinions on politics and the primaries as are 99% of the others here. You represent the other 1%.

In other words you want to take the political opinions of someone and turn them into a personal thing. Well if that is representative of your "message development" then that explains why you are here posting and not developing messages for someone this election cycle.

Now if you want to intelligently comment on my posts with arguments that are relative to what I wrote then feel free to do that. But I don't care to continue down the path that you have chose to take up to this point.


[ Parent ]
pot? kettle? hello? (0.00 / 0)
You dont' make arguments. You opine and then bitterly insult others.  You DO start pissing contests by insulting people.  And what you say are facts are often opinion.  You do this all the freaking time.

I do this for fun and to support good discourse on issues.  But you're right. I'm procrastinating.  But as another poster said, you have NO humility or respect or self awareness, as far as I can see from your postings here. 

I don't want this blog to become blowhard central.  I think it discourages participation. 


[ Parent ]
You Know (0.00 / 0)
you are like a number of others on the blogs. You see, many times when I confront someone it is because they have confronted me first. But you and others have a habit of ignoring the "first foul" and only recognizing mine. And you do that because the person who insulted me is for your candidate or position and I am not. Double Standards let's say.

It's kind of like in basketball when a guy catches an intentional elbow in the face and then pushes the offender away from him and gets a foul called on him for pushing.

I've been on the blogs for years and it not only happens to me but others too. Well I can't change how people exercise their double standards but I can ignore them like I will with you and I can retaliate to the 'first foul' in a way that makes the offender leary of fouling me again. That's the way it is.

Today I made a number of posts as I usually do that were fact and opinion oriented. I know, I know - only you and not me are supposed to post facts and opinions - well too bad it isn't that way hypocrite. And in those posts I insulted no one which is always the case unless someone responds and tells me I'm an idiot, or I don't know what I'm talking about, or challenges me and wants to create a pissing contest by way of dueling resumes (sound familiar?) which has nothing to do with my post - which in that case I respond in kind. That's not your call - it's mine.

I would suggest you quit reading my posts as you are about as likely to change my thoughts and actions as I am as likely to change yours. Trust me if I never had to respond to you again my feelings wouldn't be hurt in any way. If you don't read what I post then you will have no reason to be upset. Simple isn't it?


[ Parent ]
nope (0.00 / 0)
your posts today are good

No deal.  I write what I want when I want.  Sorry to rain on your parade as an "expert."  I think you don't play fair.  And 4 wrongs don't make a right. 

I've been on political blogs since the very beginning, thanks for condescending again.  I was online in the mid 90's too - maybe you match that if you are in academia 

You should get your own blog if you want control. 


[ Parent ]
Actually (0.00 / 0)
For me it was Compuserve BB's around '83-'85. I had a business with a Digital Mini (aka DEC, aka Digital Equipment Corporation) with workstations for Accounting, Payroll, and a custom Inventory module that I designed and had a programmer write. Dot matrix printers - which were state of the art.

So I was online before the internet and personal computers talking about business, hobbies, some politics, making airline reservations. Not that much has changed. People are people.

However at $3 to $5 an hour connection charge and access to a business computer it eliminated a lot of who you find online today. Today admission is free and they let anyone in.

"And 4 wrongs don't make a right."

Neither does turning the other cheek. I've always been one not to take any crap from anybody. I make no apologies for that. If to you that isn't playing fair then you just have different rules. But those are your rules - not mine - and that is fair, it's a free country.


[ Parent ]
i erred - it's b3456sf at...... (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Would Edwards as Kingmaker Spark a Backlash? (0.00 / 0)
The assumption tends to be that Edwards would throw his support to Obama.

Let's say that Hillary Clinton has a 45%-40% delegate lead and Edwards puts his delegates into the Obama camp, perhaps in exchange for the vice president slot or a Cabinet post.  Will there be charges of a "corrupt bargain" once more?  Will feminists be pissed at losing their dream of a woman president and react in a manner detrimental to Democratic electoral hopes?  Will the media do its best to make it a source of intra-party conflict?

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


I would think... (0.00 / 0)
That whoever has the plurality of pledged delegates will get the vast majority of superdelegates, rendering an "Edwards-as-kingmaker" scenario unlikely. But it's something worth thinking about.

Further Reading

[ Parent ]
Depends (0.00 / 0)
on how big the plurality was. They aren't going to deny the nomination to someone sitting at 48% with a double digit lead, but 43-41? It's wide open for deal making at that point.

[ Parent ]
Welcome back (4.00 / 1)
I believe you. I will never bet real money against the Clintons.

Obama is not out. Money continues to flow. The only good thing about NH is that the dem leadership seriously considered: What life without the Clintons would be like??--and they seemed to have concluded that it wouldn't be so bad. Even if they don't move to Obama yet, it helps him to have had the public airing of 'Clinton is dead,' even for just a couple of days imo.

It means we don't have to have it again. Not at that level of intensity anyway.

If he wins, the general will be cakewalk compared to this.


minor point, but fladem is male (0.00 / 0)
Next, how do you see Florida playing into the mix.  Will the candidates FINALLY break that silly pledge not to campaign here?  My friend who works on the Obama campaign says he absolutely won't break the pledge.  I think they're all foolish NOT to break it.

FLA (0.00 / 0)
Sorry about that, Fladem, I had too many things jumbled in my head as I was writing this.
I haven't a clue as to how folks will play FL. They would get a ton of shit for breaking the pledge, but there are certainly some advantages to doing it. I haven't heard from any of the campaigns how they will play it.

[ Parent ]
Depends on media coverage (0.00 / 0)
For example, Obama is for loosening restrictions on travel and sending money to Cuba and for opening dialogue, while Hillary is for the same old policy Bush favors.  Or so I have read.  Her policy appeals to older Cuban-Americans who predominantly vote GOP, while his appeals to younger folks awho arent so reflexively anti-Castro.

Obama will do well if the media just play his Iowa and NH speeches versus hers.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
"Mark Penn has never understood what this race was about" (4.00 / 1)
Sorry to raise an uncomfortable truth here, but Mark Penn has always understood what this race was about: namely, making clear to corporate elites who bankroll campaigns that the purely rhetorical concessions to the activist rank and file participating in primaries is just that-i.e. rhetoric which will be jettisoned immediately when the candidate assumes office. 

A good predictor of what we are in for was the Clinton I campaign rhetoric-"putting people first" which morphed into "putting corporations first" mere weeks after the inauguration.

Given this obvious reality it is a mystery to me why I "have to give both of these campaigns credit for impressive victories," when these victories consist of selling the same neo-liberal snake oil to gullible and/or misinformed progressives.

JH


So Far, We've Been REALLY Lucky With The Snakes (0.00 / 0)
Considering all the problems we've had on account of Arab oil, we've gotten off surprisingly light with the snakes.

What happens when they finally bite back?

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
We all become raving lunatics with no self-awareness. (4.00 / 2)
Like Chris Matthews.

[ Parent ]
Hillary is not Bill (4.00 / 1)
She is much more progressive than Bill and for those who care to look has introduced legislation that really kicks big oil in the teeth.

As for Bill I'm no fan of NAFTA and a few other things he did but he did raise taxes on the wealthy and cut taxes on the middle class. That deserves some respect.

He did try to change heath care with Hillary and their only mistake was going for the whole enchilada in one bite rather that doing it in a few steps. You can fault them for swinging for the fences - but that does not negate that they did swing for the fences.


[ Parent ]
Swinging for the Fences (4.00 / 3)
I agree entirely that Clinton swung for the fences: the telecommunications bill was a payoff to media consortia beyond the dreams of their avarice.  The repeal of Glass-Steagle poured billions into Sandy Weil's pockets.  Maintaining funding for useless weapons systems like Star Wars massively enriched numerous defense contractors.  NAFTA was a most thoughful, albeit perhaps somewhat extravagant gift to the Clinton's former patrons at Walmart etc.

No doubt Hillary will be a heavy hitter in similar ways.

I don't think this is what you had in mind though.


[ Parent ]
fladems analysis (0.00 / 0)
You've identified by fundamental issue with fladem's analysis, it assumes voters are sheep. Bandwagon effects have very little effect in general elections, and as we saw yesterday they have much less effect than people have claimed in primaries. Candidates have to earn every vote, no election is guaranteed.

I think that in a primary the long term national poll standing is a good indicator of where support fundamentally is, and while elections inevitably tighten up at the end a close look at the national polls makes for better analysis of the whole of the campaign. Long term trends are no more predictive than shorter term trends, but they matter. I also, perhaps naively, think voters want substance.


perhaps (4.00 / 1)
In the 2004 primary, it was who has the best chance of beating Bush, and primary voters decided, wrongly as it turned out, that it was Kerry.

It's not clear that they were actually wrong. It's possible Kerry might have been our best chance. The fact that he lost doesn't mean a different Democrat (especially among those running for the nomination) would have won.

Otherwise, good post.


One thing I haven't understood... (0.00 / 0)
In Armstrong, Bowers, and others' analysis...

There isn't a single Democratic primary that is winner take all.

All of them are proportional or caucus/convention. (See here.)

We'll see what happens, I suppose. It'll be a fun ride (maybe we'll get some attention on February 9 in Nebraska?)

Further Reading


Substance (0.00 / 0)
I think the debate and Clinton's dogged determination to do a series of Q&As helped her out in the end.  Friends of mine in NH who were deciding b/w Obama and Clinton kept telling me that she actually focused seriously on policy questions which although boring was important to them and that Obama was mostly rhetoric and even some of his policy answers weren't as solid as Clinton's.  That and the debate is what sold them.  Mind you, they're young adults (late 20s) worried about paying off their student loans and the economy so...

I, too, think Obama is the favorite to win.  He's got the press absolutely in love with him (Have you seen the Salon article?), which refuses to scrutinize him, let alone mention any of fundamental inconsistencies, and sensationalizes even a whiff of a "mistake" from Clinton.  Combine that with incredible organization, money, a movement behind him, a charismatic politician with a most compelling narrative whose liked by just about everyone and you've got yourself a thoroughbred.


Getting Closer to Biting the Hands that Feed Them (4.00 / 2)
I listened closely to the closing speeches of Edwards, Obama and Clinton after the New Hampshire primary last night.

What struck me is that Obama and Clinton have started to explicitly incorporate into their rhetoric the sum and substance of Edward's attacks on corporate power and its corrosive impact on the livelihoods of ordinary Americans.

This is a good thing for progressive voters, bloggers and the Democratic Party. It moves Obama and Clinton closer to biting the corporate hands that have fed their campaigns and, in Hillary's case, induced her to do their bidding so often during her career when she should have opposed them in a forthright fashion.

Paul Krugman, I believe, observed that the election of Hillary Clinton as president might not be the disaster that many progressives predict because her Clintonian opportunism has always allowed her and Bill to figure out enough about the way the political winds are blowing to stay in power.

In light of the impending takeover of American politics by progressive values, which has been documented by opinion poll after opinion poll, I interpret Krugman's observation to mean that if she gets the nomination and wins the presidency, her chronic opportunism will inevitably induce her to embrace the progressive causes that are driving the large majority of voters to reject the core conservative values that the Republican Party has espoused over the past thirty years.

Her victory speech last night suggests he may be correct.

She appeared to have been chastened by the prospect of losing to Obama in that she presented a coherent and compelling vision of a Clinton presidency that reflected not only Obama's core populist principles but those of Edwards as well.

She appears to have finally realized that she can not claim to defend the American people and middle class from the economic and financial devastation caused by corporate interests unless she takes firm action to cut back their power in government and the noxious impact of their predatory practices on the health of our economy and the livelihoods of working families.

So judging by the speeches the three candidates made, the results of the New Hampshire primary were quite positive in terms of positioning the Democratic Party to retake the presidency with a progressive platform.

I predict that the dialog and learning curve among the three of them will continue in a positive progressive direction for the remaining primaries.

The threat that Bloomberg can easily steal their progressive thunder by entering the race as an Independent -- with no financial dependence on corporate contributions -- will require them to adhere closely to the groundswell of progressive, anti-establishment, anti-corporate voter antipathy that is sweeping the country.

 


Clinton's "chronic opportunism" (4.00 / 1)
Very perceptive post.  Thanks.

One point to respond to:  I agree that Clinton's "chronic opportunism will inevitably induce her to embrace the progressive causes that are driving the large majority of voters to reject the core conservative values that the Republican Party has espoused over the past thirty years."

But I don't agree that "her victory speech last night suggests he may be correct."

Remember that Clinton's speech is only a rhetorical concession to the current climate.  There is no reason to believe that it will inform in any significant way the policies of a Clinton II administration. 

If there's any lesson we should have learned from Clinton I, it's that.

That said, I do agree that the shift in rhetoric is potentially important, that's why I support Edwards, but rhetoric and reality are two very different things, particularly when dealing with Clintonites-of whatever race or gender.



[ Parent ]
Agreed (4.00 / 1)
You are entirely correct to point out the difference between rhetoric and reality, especially when it comes to the Clintons and an HRC presidency.

Looking down the road at the big picture, however, if elected president she would face an increasingly progressive Congress whose policies she would be obliged to accommodate in a first term and adhere to in a second term.

The electorate is realigning around progressive values and policies and she will have to bow to the inevitable, despite her record of having sold out to corporate interests in the past and willingness to continue accepting campaign financing from them.

That said, I share your support for Edwards as the most progressive of the three candidates at this point. He is the driving force behind their rhetorical nods in the direction of his anti-corporate populism. I hope that his presidential bandwagon gathers steam and that whatever the outcome he remains a progressive catalyst in American politics for years to come.


[ Parent ]
Sigh (0.00 / 0)
I am really worried about the Clinton camp recognizing how powerful the feminist vote is and exploiting it all the way to the Presidency. 

I am already seeing major fights on women/feminist blogs, and Clinton is getting a lot of sympathy.

Yes misogyny is a huuuge deal in our world and older feminists are really pissed that younger women aren't following exactly in our footsteps. 

But just because Clinton is being attacked by the sexist media, doesn't mean she is automatically the best candidate.

But now we can't even have that discussion because a lot of women are being caught up in defending Clinton.  In my opinion she should be defended just like any women candidate should be defended for having to deal with the sexist media,

....just not to the exclusion of examining her big-business policies. 

Clinton is very, very smart and going to utilize the whole "listen to experienced feminists you silly girls" ala Gloria Steinem article.  The women's vote is going to get important (good), but it is going to get ugly and divisive at the same time (bad).


You fight back, sister! (0.00 / 0)
It may depend on how the media treat her going forward, and the demographic make-up of the next several states.  I think Hillary's appeal in the final days of NH may not be replicated in, say, CA and some of the larger states with very diverse populations.  If younger people vote. 

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
asdf (0.00 / 0)
"I am already seeing major fights on women/feminist blogs, and Clinton is getting a lot of sympathy."

She got mine.  I was amazed at my own reaction to the coded (and not so coded) language that was being used against her. 


[ Parent ]
Anti-misogyny vote (0.00 / 0)
I'm a male Obama supporter and I would have been tempted to pull the lever for Clinton yesterday.  I don't want Clinton to win, but a really don't want her to lose just because she is a woman.  Or for there to even be a serious thought that is why she lost.

Now that some have worried about the Wilder Effect I suspect many liberals will worry that Obama will lose because he is black.  That can't be allowed, either.


[ Parent ]
The solution is simple (4.00 / 2)
People should lay off the fucking misogyny.

I have seen this for months in blog comments (not bloggers themselves).  Language like "I'll work as hard as I can to stop the bitch if she gets the nomination."  I personally suspect that Obama is a Wall Street tool, but I'd still support him fully if he was the nominee.

At least now, when a commenter uses language like that, they can be called out on it.

If she gets the nomination, HRC will see a firestorm of misogyny in the election, count on it.  A lot of it will come from established media figures, as we've just seen.  Start laying the groundwork now for fighting back against it (as well as the subtle and not-so subtle racism that an Obama candidacy will experience).


[ Parent ]
VP Pick Early? (0.00 / 0)
Mike, I think that is the best analysis I've seen yet.

Do you and anyone else who reads this think there is any chance that one of the Dem. candidates will announce thier pick for VP while we are still in the heat of the primaries?


VP. (0.00 / 0)
It's an idea I've seen bandied about for many years, but no one has done it yet. I'm guessing the 2 frontrunners would see it as too potentially distracting and risky, but Edwards needs to look for unique ways to get into the news, so maybe he'll try it.

[ Parent ]
Hoping Obama's campaign evolves (4.00 / 1)
Though I'm becoming enthusiastic about the potential of Obama's candidacy, I share some of the concerns Paul R raises in his comments.  I also agree that the loss in NH, more intense pushback from the Clintons and the post-NH shift in CW could push Obama to flesh out the substance of his "change" message (in response and in relation to both Clinton and Edwards), and also demonstrate he can grow as a candidate amidst the kind of media whipsaws that have sunk other campaigns.

I'm also intrigued by the prospect of Edwards as "kingmaker."  With regard to this, I have a question: are all or most of Dem primaries proportional, or are some big ones winner-take-all? 

I also agree with the comment that Obama's "Yes we can" theme is another indicator of his skill and continued evolution as orator and "inspirational" speaker/leader. 

What I'd like to see is for him use this theme as the emotional umbrella for laying out a strong, strategic and synergistic progressive agenda that continues to leverage his oratorical skill and charisma, while also embodying enough substance, specifics and Edwardsian fight (as suggested by his reference to drug and insurance companies in last night's speech) to win what is likely to be a hotly contested nomination, to overwhelm the Republican candidate in November, and to actually achieve the "change" that all the Dems are now talking about as well, as the political realignment whose potential is increasingly evident (and which I think he's best suited among the candidates to lead).

As in past campaigns, I find myself wishing we could create a "hybrid" candidate that embodies the strengths of each one.  I believe Clinton's experience and insight as an insider has real value (as well as real risks), as does Edward's passionate focus on fighting the excessive and destructive economic and political power of large corporations.  But I've also come to believe that Obama's "new and expanded coalition of citizens" strategy can provide the foundation for a large-scale and sustainable realignment, and that he's particularly well suited to help lead this process. 

So, the next step in his evolution, as I see it, is to demonstrate that he, his team, positions and campaign can integrate the "I know how to make change" message of Clinton and the "some fights have to be fought and won, and I'm ready, able and eager to do that" message of Edwards.

I'm glad he'll have the chance to show whether he can evolve in this way before the election, rather than winning the nomination of a wave of passion and media hype.  And I think its good that things will come down to earth right after NH rather than later in the process. 


All are proportional... (0.00 / 0)
Although you'll see the vast majority of delegates in IL and NY go to Obama and Clinton, respectively.

Further Reading

[ Parent ]
Dynamic in this race does not favor Obama (4.00 / 1)
At least as it stands now.

Of course, since everyone has been wrong so far, odds are that I am as well.  But here's my perception - and I hope it is wrong.

1. For the last two to six months, Chris B. and others were laying out that, if Hilary won at one of two (Iowa or N.H.), she was most likely the odds-on favorite candidate.

2. Look at the makeup of New Hampshire, and which candidate took which demographic.  It's been pointed out that - Obama got the creative class/intellectual/Bill Bradley type of voter, who makes more money, while Clinton received more women, older, and those with less money, less education.  (Clinton the unlikely populist).  The "change" campaign that Obama embodies, is much more appealing to the Bill Bradley demographic segment, than the demographic segments that Hilary won.  (And the creative class segment, will always be smaller than the silent lower middle class.)

New Hampshire was TAILOR MADE, in terms of demographics, for the Obama candidacy to win.  TAILOR MADE.  Those same factors who voted for Hilary in this campaign, are only going to increase in campaigns in other states. 

And yet Obama didn't win, he lost.  Stopped cold.

Also, IF any of the Clinton magic can be transferred to Hilary, Clinton has always outperformed the polls, right? His ground game, his appeal to the lower middle class, but staunch Democrats, the "silent class", has always been stronger than people understood.

If that has transferred to Hilary - Obama is going to have be spotted 2 points, at a minimum in polls, to break even.

3. On top of this, there IS the Wilder/Dinkins effect, as much as we'd like to deny that this effect exists.  Proclaiming yourself one way, but voting another way, when actually voting.  Hopefully, this effect is very small, but we need to be the "reality-based community" about it.  This shaves off another 1 to 2 points from the pre-polls.

At this point, it's on Obama to show that he can win over the demographics of the people that Hilary won in this election.

We will see this in Nevada, and Florida, but you'd have to say it isn't looking good.


Black vote (0.00 / 0)
But the "wine track" doesn't typically include the black vote, I believe.  We haven't seen this play out in an ethically-diverse state yet, so we still don't know how large his coalition really is.

Right now, most Democrats seem to like all three of our main candidates.  That makes the vote very fluid and hard to predict.


[ Parent ]
The Obama coalition. (0.00 / 0)
With Obama, you might be able to add to the Bradley-esque creative class coalition a strong majority of African-Americans and younger voters, both turning out in unusually high numbers. It's also quite possible that in primaries not dominated by sexist media coverage in the 24 hours before the vote, that Obama could get more women voters than he did in NH, as he obviously did in IA- women voters are strong change voters. That combination would be enough addition to the Bradley coalition for Obama to win.
And by the way, it's not clear to me that NH's voting population is that much higher in terms of creative class than many other states. 

[ Parent ]
Very well may be possible (4.00 / 1)
I guess the analytic question is your last comment - what is the percentage of "creative class" in NH, as opposed to upcoming states?

I'm only going by what I read.  About how NH is a latte and wine swilling mecca (ok, an exaggeration, but how this is portrayed). 

If you look up median income in the states, New Hampshire is 5th.

While Nevada is 17th, and SC is 42nd.

So I do believe there are some valid statistics behind the contention.


[ Parent ]
Also, WHY do I keep seeing the "tears" thing everywhere?? (4.00 / 1)
There were NO tears!!

She got emotional, but there were no tears.

AND, she didn't get any more emotional than Romney did, in his big religion speech!!

Can people push back on this, please?


One more question regarding the polls (0.00 / 0)
We see people offer explanation after explanation about why the polls were so wrong:

a. Wilder effect
b. Ant-misogyny effect
c. GOTV effect
d. Obama's name on the ballot (it was lower down) effect
e. People who were voting for Dodd/Biden, realizing while voting that they weren't on the ticket, voted instead for Clinton AT the polls.

Who knows, all of these could be a part of things.  I don't think anyone really knows.

The thing is, all the other polls in this race WERE accurate.  Both IA polls, and the numbers on the Republican side.

Something no one has mentioned, but would if this had been a repub/democrat race - is there any potential for fraud here?

Surely the occam's razor explanation.


Only wrong on Clinton (4.00 / 1)
As Matt Yglesias points out, the polls where correct for both the Edwards and Obama vote.  Whatever happened has more to do with Clinton than anyone else.

Fraud would be almost impossible, I suspect.  Much harder than just getting out the female vote.


[ Parent ]
Good point (0.00 / 0)
That actually makes things stranger though, right?

It's just strange that EVERY OTHER element of polling would come in fine, but HILLARY'S numbers blow up to such absurdity.
Even within the same election, as you point out.  Every number was within polling MOE, except for Hilary's.


[ Parent ]
Older, secular women (0.00 / 0)
Clinton got the older, secular women's vote in New Hampshire or 12%+ women. Obama won the young, evangelical women's vote in Iowa or 5%+ women.

A 17% age and religion stretch that makes sense.

Banned for posting five straight diaries.


[ Parent ]
Great post and discussion (0.00 / 0)
I just wanted to say that the post was great and the comments (almost entirely) were thoughtful and great.  I do rescue ranger work for DailyKos the level of discussion in this thread is head and shoulders above my experience there.

I wanted to add to the discussion that regardless of any Kingmaker role, I think Edwards as long as he stays in forces the conversation to the left on issues and he has already has significant effect to that end.  People talk about retooling and stealing concepts but if the Populist issues that he talks about are taken up by the campaign in general, it will be great. 

Before Iowa, I had this fantasy that Edwards would do well enough that the other Campaigns would realize that real progressive message was the way to go.  It was the analog to 2006 when Lamonts victory legitimized the anti-war message.  Before that, remember, the DSCC was staying away from Iraq.  Afterwards a lot of Democratic candidates picked it up and that was what made the landslide IMHO, not the Media narrative of bipartisanship crap.

I further went on to dream that Pelosi and Reid  would get together and decide to stick it to the Rethuglicans by forcing them to vote against things most people want, support Presidential Vetos, and in the Senate force them to actually filibuster.  I have a dream that they decide to do this as an election year tactic to force more Republican losses. 

I also hope they start putting poison pills into bills like cutting off funding for Halliburton and Blackwater, increases in Veterans Benefits funding and coverage with otherwise clean Iraq funding.

Anyhow, I am very proud of my party.  A friend said last night watching the returns that the longer this stayed an open contest the longer the base would be fired up and the more uninvolved would get involved.  I spoke to at least 10  people who weren't planning on attending their caucus who I filled in on where to go and what to do.


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