Racial Bargainers Are A REAL Bargain-Shelby Steele on Bill Moyers Journal

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 13:23


Black conservative Shelby Steele appeared on Bill Moyers Journal last night.  Moyers, though demonized by the right like everyone to the left of Attila the Hun, has a long history of engaging with various conservatives, and treating them with far more dignity and intellectual respect then they deserve.  It's one of the ways in which liberals repeatedly get themselves into trouble, and last night was no exception.

Steele's main conceit of the night was his schema of bargainers vs. challengers-a schema that makes perfect sense within the limited schema of conservative thought, in which there is no such thing as social responsibility, only "personal responsibility," which always seems to be deployed downward: like Leona Helmsly famously said about taxes, it's for "little people."  All of this is to say that there's some truth in what Steele has to say-but it's not quite the truth he imagines it to be.

From the transcript:

SHELBY STEELE: .... I think that the black community in general has been very conflicted about Barack Obama. Precisely because he's been so successful among whites. And that makes black people nervous.

BILL MOYERS: Yeah. You say in here, white people like Barack Obama a little too much for the comfort of many blacks.

SHELBY STEELE: Yes. Yes.

BILL MOYERS: Why?

SHELBY STEELE: Well, the black American identity, certainly black American politics are grounded in what I call challenging. It's basically, they look at white America and say we're going to presume that you're a racist until you prove otherwise. The whole concept is you keep whites on the hook. You keep the leverage. You keep the pressure. Here's a guy who's what I call a bargainer who's giving whites the benefit of the doubt.

I work with a young black man. He's our managing editor.  Like all young black men, he knows what you do when the police pull you over. "Assume the position."  It's so routine, most blacks don't even bother talking to whites about it.  But, it does give folks a good reason to presume that white America  as a whole is still racist.  Steele, like all conservatives, engages in a blurring strategy between the individual and the group.  The purpose of the post is to engage in a bit of strategic unblurring.

The interview continues:

BILL MOYERS: Give me a simple definition of what you call a bargainer. And a simple definition of what you call a challenger.

SHELBY STEELE: A bargainer is a black who enters the American, the white American mainstream by saying to whites in effect, in some code form, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm not going to rub the shame of American history in your face if you will not hold my race against me. Whites then respond with enormous gratitude. And bargainers are usually extremely popular people. Oprah Winfrey, Bill Cosby, Sidney Poitier back in the Sixties and so forth. Because they give whites this benefit of the doubt. That you can be with these people and not feel that you're going to be charged with racism at any instant. And so they tend to be very successful, very popular.

Challengers on the other hand say, I presume that you, this institution, this society, is racist until it proves otherwise by giving me some concrete form of racial preference.

BILL MOYERS: Affirmative action.

SHELBY STEELE: Affirmative action. Diversity programs. Opportunities of one kind or another. And so, there is a much more concrete bargaining on the case of challengers. And you go into any American institution today and they're all used to dealing with challengers. They all have a whole system of things that they can give to challengers, who then will offer absolution.

    [Snarky aside: Ay, there's the rub: "there is a much more concrete bargaining on the case of challengers."  Challegers aren't cheap!  They want some quid with their pro quo.  There's gotta be a cheaper way.  America loves them some cheap.  No new taxes!  Let the children pay!]
Paul Rosenberg :: Racial Bargainers Are A REAL Bargain-Shelby Steele on Bill Moyers Journal
Note how directly Steele blurs the individual and the instutional:  Bargainers put individual whites at ease, "Challengers on the other hand say, I presume that you, this institution, this society, is racist until it proves otherwise by giving me some concrete form of racial preference."

But why is a critical attitude toward white institutions perceived as an attack on white individuals?  Why can't whites say, "Yes, that's unfair?"  Why do they have to feel responsible for something they had no part in creating?  Conservatives often complain that blacks are blaming white people today for historical grievances that today's whites had no part in.  But an institutional critique is not an attack on individual whites.  The confusion here does not come from blacks seeking equitable treatment, it comes from whites with confused loyalties-and from conservatives who do their darnedest to keep folks confused.

In part, this is done because they can't help themselves.  This goes back to Robert Kegan's schema of cognitive development, in which each successive stage takes as object (those aspects/configurations of self and world that it can act on consciously) that which was formerly subject (the subconscious background/context used to apprehend what is object).  Here, again, is the table showing how this works through a succession of levels:

Kegan's Subject/Object Schema of Cognitive Development
StageWe Are:
Subject
(structure of knowing)
We Have:
Object
(content of knowing)
Underlying Structure
1Perceptions

SOCIAL PERCEPTIONS

Impulses
Movement


Sensation
2Concrete

POINT OF VIEW

Enduring Dispositions
Perceptions

SOCIAL PERCEPTIONS

Impulses
3
Traditionalism
Abstractions

MUTUALITY/
INTERPERSONALISM
Relationship


Inner states
Concrete

POINT OF VIEW

Enduring Dispositions
Needs, Peferences
4
Modernism
Abstract Systems

INSTITUTION
Relationship-Regulating Forms

Self-authorship
Abstractions

MUTUALITY/
INTERPERSONALISM
Relationship

Inner states
Subjectivity
Self-consciousness
5
Post-
Modernism
Dialectical

INTER-
INSTITUTIONAL

Self-transformation
Abstract Systems
Ideology

INSTITUTION
Relationship-Regulating Forms

Self-authorship
Self-regulation
Self-formation

Conservatives confuse individual and social/individual criticism for a very simle reason: conservatism is the natural philosophy of level 3, the level at which the individual subject is defined by its social roles and relationships.  The capacity to stand outside these roles and relationships, to take them as object, and alter them, if necessary, does not emerge until level 4.  This capacity is the same capacity to alter marriage, for example.  It was employed in the past to alter marriage from primarily a material, familial alliance to a romantic, individual one-a move that conservatives staunchly opposed at the time.  In the same way, it is being employed today to alter marriage from being solely a heterosexual alliance to being one defined irresepective of sexual orientation.

Thus, there is a consistent inadequacy of conservative thought that is built into it at the fundamental cognitive level.  Unable to separate the individual from the group, multiple confusions ensue, while vital critical distinctions simply make no sense, because they lack the critical distance needed to see them.

However, it is important to realize that not all conservatives are at level 3.  Many are not.  But their political philosophy is locked in at that level-at a maximum.  In fact, their politics often devolves to level 2 or lower.  When they conceive of people in terms of their fixed, immutable nature, this is a form of "durable category" which is characteristic of level 2. I do not believe that Steele is necessarily functioning at level 3 in his everyday life.  But his political commitments bind himself to seeing the world in terms that only make sense conditioned by the limits of level 3.

And so it is that Steele speaks in terms of "absolution":

you go into any American institution today and they're all used to dealing with challengers. They all have a whole system of things that they can give to challengers, who then will offer absolution.

This personalized language and approach to talking about public policy is a further indication of level 3 thinking.  There are no larger universal principles involved. (Level 3 thinkers are capable of thinking in terms of abstractions-but not abstract systems.) There are only individual acts of accusation, absolution, challenging, bargaining, etc. This is a profoundly trivialized view of public policy.  Indeed, it is all of one piece with the white conservatives who refer to civil rights leaders as "race hustlers.'  Shelby Steele is more genteel than that.  He calls them "challengers" instead.  But he thinks of them in the same sort of limited framework that cannot systematically organize principles into a larger coherent framework.  He can invoke abstract principles, such as justice, but he cannot reason about them in a systematic fashion, because doing so requires level 4 thinking.  At level 3, abstract principles are a given, embedded in the same subjective, unexaminable context that the self itself is embedded in and constructed out of.

Next let's skip back to near the beginning.  Here we see why Steele migh have been a good novelist.  Novelists, after all, can do just fine writing exclusively on level 3, and they can express profound insights on that level.  (You can even have profound insights on level 2: the Linean system of classifying all living things is one such example.  The Periodic Table of Elements is another.)

BILL MOYERS: But you go on to say why he can't win. Now, that would seem to suggest you don't think he can become President.

SHELBY STEELE: My gut feeling is that he's going to have a difficulty-- a difficult time doing that. The reason I think that we don't yet know him. We don't yet quite know. What his deep abiding convictions are. And he seems to have, you know, almost in a sense kept them concealed. And a part of the I think infatuation with Obama is because he's something of an invisible man. He's a kind of a projection screen. And you sort of see more your - the better side of yourself when you look at Obama than you see actually Barack Obama.

BILL MOYERS: You say in here that his supporters want him not to do something, but to be something.

SHELBY STEELE: Yes.

BILL MOYERS: To represent something. What do you think they want him to be?

SHELBY STEELE: I think to be very blunt about it, in a lot of that support is a desire for convergence of a black skin with the United States Presidency, with power on that level - the idea is that to have a black in that office leading a largely white country would be redemptive for America.

BILL MOYERS: Redemptive?

SHELBY STEELE: Redemptive. Would take us a long way. Would indicate that we truly have moved away from that shameful racist past that we had.

BILL MOYERS: That's perfectly logical isn't it?

SHELBY STEELE: Yes, it is.

BILL MOYERS: And desirable. You seem to--

SHELBY STEELE: I want it.

However, such yearning for symbolic redemption has a very different meaning if it does not change the lives of ordinary people.  This is a major lesson of South Africa, where the ruling black majority has adapted itself to the international neo-liberal order, and kept the vast majority of its voting base in abject poverty.  There is severe discontent with this arrangement, and a dissident populist leader has just been elected to head the African National Congress.  It requires a level 4 conseciousness to properly appreciate the symbolic redemption along with its limits and contradictions.  This is what the great 19th century social novelists possessed in abundance,  They wrote almost exclusively at level 3, while thinking at level 4.  It was the juxtaposition of diverse level 3 stories that revealed underlying contradictions and conveyed a level 4 view of the world to people normally incapable of seeing the world that way.  It was, in prose, analogous to the Renaissance discovery of perspective in drawing.  Steele may well possess a level 4 consciousness, but it cannot be expressed in his level 3 ideology.  Still, his level 3 insight is profoundly right, so far as it goes.

There is, of course, a tragic undertone when he speaks of Obama as "an invisible man."  One cannot hear this phrase, even casually, without conjuring up Ralph Ellison's novel, particularly its beginning:

I am an invisible man. No, I am not a spook like those who haunted Edgar Allen Poe; nor am I one of your Hollywood-movie ectoplasms. I am a man of substance, of flesh and bone, fiber and liquids--and I might even be said to possess a mind. I am invisible, understand, simply because people refuse to see me. Like the bodiless heads you see sometimes in circus sideshows, it is as though I have been surrounded by mirrors of hard, distorting glass. When they approach me they see only my surroundings, themselves, or figments of their imagination indeed, everything except me.

  To have a black man become President, and yet still, in some sense, be Ellison's protagonist....

This is not just an idle speculation on my part, as will be seen below.

But first, we need to leaven Steele's insight with his profound stupidity-and, sadly, Bill Moyers' willingness to join in with him.  Picking up at the tail end of a passage quoted earlier:

SHELBY STEELE: Affirmative action. Diversity programs. Opportunities of one kind or another. And so, there is a much more concrete bargaining on the case of challengers. And you go into any American institution today and they're all used to dealing with challengers. They all have a whole system of things that they can give to challengers, who then will offer absolution.

BILL MOYERS: And what are the--

SHELBY STEELE: Then we'll say this institution is vetted now. It's not racist anymore.

Oh, really???

BILL MOYERS: One of the worst things that can happen to you in this country is to be charged with being racially biased.

Oh, really???

SHELBY STEELE: Yes.

BILL MOYERS: Racial stigma.

SHELBY STEELE: You never get over it. On your obituary, it'll be the first line. And there's almost no redemption. The good side of that is it makes the point of how intense this society is in its desire to overcome racism and its past.

Oh, really???  Then why the fuck did the Supreme Court just reverse Brown v. Board of Education??? 

BILL MOYERS: Yes.

Oh, my bad!

SHELBY STEELE: So it's a good thing on the other hand. On the other hand, the bad side of it is that it has become a form of cruelty. And all you're doing is terrifying whites. I wrote in the last book, WHITE GUILT. Whites live under now, we've underestimated the power of this. Whites live under now this threat of being stigmatized as race. Our institutions live under this threat of being stigmatized as racist and they're almost panicked over it. What makes me sad there is then whites look at what happened to Don Imus. And now, they're never going to tell me what they really feel.

So, we've moved on from black thugs terrifying whites (even though most crime occurs between members of the same race) to blacks in general terrifying whites with the threat of being called racist.  Because, of course, all whites identify with Don Imus, they sit around all day with their friends talking in non-stop racial stereotypes, that's just how white folks are.  (Is there any race Steele doesn't insult?)

Whites know never tell blacks what you really think and what you really feel because you risk being seen as a racist.

If you're Don-fucking-Imus!

And the result of that is that to a degree, we as blacks live in a bubble. Nobody tells us the truth.

Don Imus tells the truth???

Nobody tells us what they would do if they were in our situation. Nobody really helps us. They use us. They buy their own innocence with us. But they never tell us the truth. And we need to be told the truth very often.

So, Don Imus was helping black folks?

Yeah, that's the ticket!

You know, America is a great society, a great country. Has all sorts-- the values have gotten us to this place where we are the world's greatest society in many ways. Well, those values, yes, we had a history of terrible racism. But those same values will work for blacks. They will help us join the mainstream, become a part of it. But whites can't say that because then they seem to be judgmental. They're seen as racist. And so, no one says it to us.

Are we talking "no one" as in Don Imus?  Or "no one" as in every single conservative blowhard in the known universe???  [Hmmmm. Rush Limbaugh as "Invisible Man."  Who knew?]

This is where Bill Moyers Journal suffers grievously in comparison with Showtime at the Apollo.  Shelby Steele has been onstage looooong after he should have been yanked.

After all, as I noted in my last diary, the racial wealth gap means that middle class blacks, who have done everything right, learned all those lessons, gone to college, gotten degrees and professional jobs, are still living a marginal existence in America, especially compared to whites who are making the exact same income.

But, then, magically, he veers back to his singular insight, talking about bargainers again:

BILL MOYERS: So you can understand though, why some whites would look to Obama as a redeemer from that--

SHELBY STEELE: They think that Obama is a way out of all of that. That he will bring an American redemption. And whites are very happy for that bargain and show gratitude and even affection for bargainers. Oprah Winfrey is the classic bargainer who has also a kind of magic about her that I think again reflects the aspirations of white America.

BILL MOYERS: But she never challenges white America.

SHELBY STEELE: No. She--

BILL MOYERS: She's successful in part because she makes us.

SHELBY STEELE: She makes you feel that this aspiration is possible. That-- it's-- real. White American women love Oprah. Love Oprah. And so, she makes them feel that way.

BILL MOYERS: Bill Cosby did that with his--

SHELBY STEELE: Bill Cosby did that.

BILL MOYERS: Cliff Huxtable.

SHELBY STEELE: Yeah.

BILL MOYERS: Remember? The--

SHELBY STEELE: But he made a big mistake, Bill Cosby.

BILL MOYERS: What?

SHELBY STEELE: He finally in the last few years has one of the iron clad rules for bargainers is they can never tell you what they actually think and feel. They can never reveal their deep abiding convictions. Because the minute they do that, they're no longer an empty projection screen. They become an individual. And whites begin to say, well, I didn't know you felt that way. I didn't know you believed that. And the aura dissipates. If Barack Obama starts to say, you know, I really think there's a value to racial preferences even though it conflicts with equality under the law, people are, you know, that that's a little too-- that's a little too revealing of who he might really be.

Of course, even with so-called "racial preferences" the ones who can't "equality under the law" are B-L-A-C-K, but we take that sort of conservative canard for granted from the likes of Steele.  But look what's he's just said:  a bargainer can't be a person! He can't have his own ideas!  He can't be an individual!

And here the whole standard conservative line is the black masses lead by racial hustlers versus the enlightened, independent, individual blacks, learning the lessons of America... "America is a great society, a great country. Has all sorts-- the values have gotten us to this place where we are the world's greatest society.... those same values will work for blacks. They will help us join the mainstream, become a part of it."  But now Steele is admitting that the would-be alternative for blacks is to disappear!  To not be an individual at all!  To be invisible!

Not just my words.  It's where Steele himself is headed:

BILL MOYERS: So you're saying he can not serve the aspirations of one race without antagonizing the other?

SHELBY STEELE: That's right. That's right. They're two different agendas. And so his answer, this is the answer of all bargainers in a sense is to remain invisible as much as possible.

BILL MOYERS: What do you mean invisible? Because he's all over television.

SHELBY STEELE: He's all over television. But if you listen to his -- speeches 'change,' 'hope.' I mean, it's a kind of-- it's an empty mantra. I mean a surprising degree of emptiness, of lack of specificity. What change? Change from what to what? What direction do you want to take the country? What do you mean by hope? There's never any specificity there because specificity is dangerous to a bargainer.

BILL MOYERS: But, to be a successful politician in a presidential campaign in particular you have to engage a larger public. That's why so many politicians use ambiguity.

SHELBY STEELE: In Obama's case, there's more ambiguity. We have a pretty good idea. I mean, Hillary Clinton does the same thing, uses ambiguity. But we still have a pretty good idea of who she really is and what she wants to do with the country and so forth. John Edwards has probably got the straightest, most concrete message of any of them. We really know who he is. But Obama is still more invisible. We don't quite-- we don't know what he would do.

Which, of course, is the problem I've had all along with Obama.

Now, maybe, just maybe, Obama really does have a very good idea who he is, and what he's going to do.  But if even the benighted level 3 Shelby Steele can make the Obama/Ellison connection, it really is time that we seriously faced that reality, and asked ourselves, what can we do about it?

Because it wasn't Ellison's narrator who made himself invisible.  It was everyone else.


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Terrific post (4.00 / 1)
Thanks for this.

I sat squirming on the couch during this fetid, piece of crap "interview" thinking many of the same things. While I'm actually glad Moyers makes the attempt to engage "conservatives" (quotes just because it's an over- and mis-used term), in this case he wasn't engaging, he was simply swallowing whole. His mutual preening session with Kathleen Hall Jamieson was similarly nauseating, but less significant in terms of the national discourse.

I've admired Bill Moyers for the better part of 30 years now (since high school, actually), but this segment is the kind of thing that sets back race relations, instead of moving it forward. Not one of his finer moments.

Like most right-wing propagandists, which as far as I can tell is his only function, Steele dissembles, obfuscates and projects with shocking ease and false eloquence. False in the sense he's a terrific liar.

Moyers  not challenging him on his projection alone is worthy of scorn. While Steele puts down Obama as a loathesome "bargainer," it became instantly apparent the real bargainer is Steele himself. He did have some kernels of truth to seed his rhetoric with, such as Obama's lack of positional or substantive language on anything at all in his rhetoric (which ticks me off significantly), but on the whole his attack was just about projecting his own corrupt nature on Obama. Instead of questioning it, Moyers lapped it up with an expression of sincere appreciation.

It's moments like this that feed the notion of liberal racism. Ugh.

"In our country, the lie has become not just a moral category but a pillar of the State" -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn


Thanks (0.00 / 0)
I wouldn't mind the Kathleen Hall Jamieson segment, if it were kept to 5 minuites or so.  I think it's sort of expected in this campaign year, and so I could put up with small doeses.  But he usually has so much more valuable things to discuss and people to discuss with.

I don't think Steele sees bargainers as loathesome.  Nor do I necessarily.  It's only when such baragaining substitutes for everything else--which is the conservatives' wet dream--that it really becomes loathesome.  Individual goodwill has no necessary relationship whatsoever to an institutional critique.

Steele, though, is rather odd bargainer, since he attacks both sides, as I noted re his implicit assumptions that all white folks are Don Imus inside, and the black middle class is still morally deficient.

Aside from being a shill, he just seems totally incapable of recognizing the consequences of his own arguments.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Agreed on all counts... (0.00 / 0)
Not knowing much of him, I can only look at what he presents and I found it rather odd, even possibly dissociative, the way he manages to put down both ends of a one-dimensional spectrum that apparently has little or no middle. Projection with a false sense of "objectivity."

You're right though, he is far more sympathetic to bargainers than to challengers and well he should be given his position as Bargainer Extraordinaire, eh?

As for consequences, he's not paid to pontificate those, though I would hope he manages to one day. If he's really as shallow as he presents himself, with his cartoonish representation of race relations, he may very well not possess the intellectual or intestinal fortitude to get past his own--albeit more sterilized--stereotypes.

For what it's worth, I'd venture to guess he's simply too narcissistic to even bother with those pesky consequences. Isn't it sad that some of the most accurate ways for us to describe "conservatives" is in terms of pathologies?

What to do about all this is a HUGE question that present circumstances demand an answer to, yes? Sadly, I don't think there are any easy answers. Even many, if not most liberals of caucasian persuasion aren't too keen to deal with it--consider "liberal" Hollywood.

Forget the corporate media. They never really stopped being racist, as one can tune into the local TeeVee news and see it everyday, even if it is a tad more subtle than yesteryear.



"In our country, the lie has become not just a moral category but a pillar of the State" -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn


[ Parent ]
The Simplest Formulation of Hollywood's Problem (0.00 / 0)
Is that they think the basic problem is "racism" (see Crash) when it's really white supremacy.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
I never thought about the Barack Obama Rorsasch effect in terms of race (0.00 / 0)
but now it seems blindingly obvious.  Thank you.

Also, another thing that really struck me about that interview is this:


SHELBY STEELE: Bill Cosby did that.

BILL MOYERS: Cliff Huxtable.

SHELBY STEELE: Yeah.

BILL MOYERS: Remember? The--

SHELBY STEELE: But he made a big mistake, Bill Cosby.

BILL MOYERS: What?

SHELBY STEELE: He finally in the last few years has one of the iron clad rules for bargainers is they can never tell you what they actually think and feel. They can never reveal their deep abiding convictions. Because the minute they do that, they're no longer an empty projection screen. They become an individual. And whites begin to say, well, I didn't know you felt that way. I didn't know you believed that. And the aura dissipates. If Barack Obama starts to say, you know, I really think there's a value to racial preferences even though it conflicts with equality under the law, people are, you know, that that's a little too-- that's a little too revealing of who he might really be.

Steele is almost completely wrong on this.  Cosby didn't go around demanding more affirmative action, or stronger hate crime laws.  Cosby used a mainstream white outlook to criticize black culture.  Cosby validated the criticisms that people always directed to his show in the 80s--that it was an attempt to take a bunch of black people and make them seem white. 


Quite True, But... (0.00 / 0)
If you read the transcript carefully, Steele never says anything about the content of the stand that he took, or who he pissed off.

Very sneaky, wouldn't you agree?

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
You know what's funny? (4.00 / 1)
After having read Dr. Michael Eric Dyson's book on Cosby, one finds that Dr. Cosby used to be that 'challenger' Steele despises, speaking out about how different life is for black America and white America and how Cosby as a young man was actually in some ways answering many of the rhetorical jabs Cosby as an old activist is now throwing at the black poor.

[ Parent ]
I Really Loved Bob Cosby As A Kid (0.00 / 0)
A smart-ass black nerd.  What's not to love?

So sad that he's turned into such an old grouch.

He was a major supporter of Jesse Jackson's presidential bids, btw.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Good post (0.00 / 0)
I find Steele interesting and compelling -- though I do not buy a good deal of his argument. The way he talks about race though does make one think.

In the end -- two thoughts:

1. Amazing how Ellison's classic holds up over time. A truly great novel.

2. Sometimes after listening to / reading about /participating in discussions like this, I just want to scream: Why can't we just all get along!

Yeah, I know why we can't, but it's frustrating to see the same old racism/ "subtle" racism / "race card" / black vs. white dichotomies over and over again.

The desire to get past this is certainly one of the reasons for Obama's popularity. I'm not in his corner (I'm strongly pro-Clinton), but if he does win the presidency I do share the hope that this will be one of the benefits.


Well, I Live In Los Angeles County (0.00 / 0)
And it's amazing how well we do get along.  We still have a racist police department at the LAPD, as last MayDay proved, and there's every reason to believe that every other police department in the county is racist as well.  But despite such provocations, the degree of inter-ethnic and inter-racial trust and collaboration is truly inspiring.

There are tensions, to be sure.  There are sore spots.  There are some politicians who play to a narrow, superficial form of group identity politics.  But the big picture is that increasingly our politics locally is devoted to solving common problems, and where this does tend to exacerbate racial tensions there are people who will step forward and deliberately counter-act it.

The difference between now and the years leading up to the Rodney King beating is genuinely significant.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Ugh (0.00 / 0)
I watched it last night and felt like smashing the TV, both for Steele's blatant and despicable dishonesty and for Moyers' apparent inability and/or unwillingness to see through it and call it out for what it was--unmitigated fetid and festering horseshit.

Two quick points (as I don't have the time for a more thoughtful comment).

One, while I don't know that much about him, from his appearance on Moyers last night and other times I've heard or read him, Steele strikes me as a profoundly angry and even hateful man who, like Clarence Thomas, has so deeply buried his anger that it's paradoxically caused him to identify with the very people whom he's really angry at--racists. He's such a profound liar because he's ultimately lying to himself (and making common cause with the likes and proteges of Nixon, Atwater, Rove and Lott is NOT "bargaining"?!?).

And two, Moyers really frustrates me sometimes (like so many other old school liberals) in his denseness about what the other side is really all about. He came across as just as bad as if not worse than Charlie Rose last night in his foolishness and/or eagerness to be liked by the other side (and to me there is no worse thing that one can accuse a liberal pundit of than of being worse than Bill Kristol's good buddy of the dark room and roundtable).

I'm all for meetings of the mind and exchanging ideas honestly with respectable intellectual adversaries. But Steele is not an honest broker of ideas. He is a dissembler, sophist and propaganda-mongerer of the worst kind. Has Moyers brain gone to mush in his old age, or has he always been this way? At the very least he should have had someone with the opposite views on to rebut Steele, like a Cornel West or Eric Dyson.

Sheesh, Bill, what's wrong with you?!?

And I kind of actually liked the Jamieson segment, especially the part where she explained the context of McCain's remark about staying in Iraq (which I still disagree with but which was not quite as wackjobby as some have made it out to be). In a sense Moyers was shown to be a bit sloppy from both directions--i.e. too credulous to both the right AND left.

The liberal soul shall be made fat. He who waters shall be watered also himself. (Proverbs 11:25)


At Least He Makes Thomas Sowell Look Good! (0.00 / 0)
I actually think that Steele could make a decent novelist.  Not great, but decent.  Some of his insights are valid, as far as they go, and the sort of limited cognitive framework of level three thinking can be quite adequate for decent prose.  And narcissism in a minor novelist can be a strength as well as a weakness.  At least when you're obsessing on yourself, you're obsessing on something, and that's a large part of what you need to write a novel--obsession.

All this helps to set Steele a cut or two above Sowell.  Maybe even three or four. (Do I hear five?)

He's such a profound liar because he's ultimately lying to himself (and making common cause with the likes and proteges of Nixon, Atwater, Rove and Lott is NOT "bargaining"?!?).

"Ass-kissing" is more like it, actually.  But I see your point.

And I kind of actually liked the Jamieson segment, especially the part where she explained the context of McCain's remark about staying in Iraq (which I still disagree with but which was not quite as wackjobby as some have made it out to be).

I generally like Jamieson, but (a) this was a weak performance and (b) Moyers usually has folks on that I'd rather hear from.  Let Jamieson go on other shows and substantially raise the level of discourse there.  Moyers generally doesn't need it.

In particular, I don't think this redeems John McCain, and I already understood the context.  Comparing Iraq to South Korea is not comforting, it's precisely what drives the Iraqis wild.  That's the last thing they--or the Arabs more generally--want.

Except, of course, for bin Laden.  He calls it, "The gift that keeps on giving."

So, you see, McCain is a whack job, after all.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Well... (0.00 / 0)
First, I understood Steele's definition of "bargaining" to essentially be "ass-kissing". I.e. I'll be a nice little N---- and promise to not threaten or kill you, and in exchange you'll pretend to like, not fear and treat me like an equal (HIS definition, NOT mine).

And second, my point about Jamieson wrt McCain is that while you and I and she and many others fully understood what McCain meant (or at least wants us to believe that he meant), Moyers either did not appear to fully understand it, or else failed to fully explain what he meant. I'm all for attacking the other side's crap, but it's actual, uncensored crap, and not a semi-straw man version of it. It's not as if we need to do that with today's right, anyway.

And I personally find it much more satisfying and useful to go after their actual stated (or implied) positions, as opposed to simplified versions of them that are occasionally bandied about by our side and not entirely supportable by the facts. Plus, it just makes our side more credible in the end. Let the pantywaists, liars and idiots on the other side create and knock down straw men and phantoms (be it on the US left or in the mideast and elsewhere), as we go after their actual crap (for lack of a better term).

One example that keeps coming up is the claim that Eric Shinseki supposedly aggressively urged that we go into Iraq with far more troops than we did, and was fired for it, when as far as I can tell all he did was respond to a question during a pre-war hearing about how many troops he thought would be required for such an invasion, and after hesitating uncomfortably for a bit, finally said that he thought several hundred thousand would likely be necessary. Prescient on his part, but hardly what some on the left have made his actual statements out to be (unless there's more to this than I'm aware of). Plus, he technically wasn't fired, but rather told well ahead of what was the norm that his term wouldn't be renewed, thus effectively making him a lame duck. Semi-fired, but not actually fired.

Nitpicking on my part, perhaps, but I believe that to effectively go after these people, you have to go with your most concentrated, fact-based, honest and counterattack-proof attack, and not one watered down with feel-good semi-distortions, which I think makes for the most powerful type of attack since it gives the other side very little to strike back at effectively.

Plus, nothing feels better than success.

But I digress...

The liberal soul shall be made fat. He who waters shall be watered also himself. (Proverbs 11:25)


[ Parent ]
I'm With You 100% On Your Second Point (0.00 / 0)
Which is why I'm not wuth you on your first.

I'm willing to read "bargaining" as at least potetially a fairly straightforward setting aside of personal, individual presumptions.  You don't have to kiss ass to do that.

In fact, rather the opposite.  It bespeaks, at least potentially, a greater security, self-confidence, and ability to focus on the real institutional barriers without getting distracted into chasing what may just be phantoms.

"Eyes on the prize," as they say in the trade.

But I think that Steele is just incredibly dishonest in any number of ways, which is where the ass-kissing comes in.  I would separate the criticism of Steele's conduct from bare-bones concept.  And I would further say that the bargainer need not be an invisible man.

Indeed, there is no reason why a bargainer on the individual level could not be a challenger on the institutional level--a possibility that Steele obviously means to foreclose, but utterly fails to do, at least in his presentation in this interview.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Actually (0.00 / 0)
I was referring to how Steele appeared to be characterizing "bargaining", which I took to mean ass-kissing and selling out, as opposed to what you and I and most reasonably people would likely characterize it, which is to not be adamantine and be at least willing to hear out the other side and perhaps compromise where possible and necessary.

Steele, though, appeared to be precluding any possible legitimacy of what he seemed to view as "bargaining", and it was this limited and distorted apparent view of "bargaining" that I was responding to. At least that's how I heard him. Perhaps I misunderstood.

In any case, of course I agree that true bargaining is not ass-kissing (or at least it doesn't have to be), and that it's a usually necessary part of getting what one wants (or as much of it as possible) in the real world.

This is why I'm not as hard on Obama as some are, since I don't read his willingness to talk to the other side as caving in (let alone ass-kissing), but rather a willingness to sit down at the negotiating table to see where we go from there, with no preconditions or a priori giveaways. Realistically, they're not going to give up anything substantive without a fight, and I think that Obama realizes that. But by starting out with the stance that he's willing to hear them out, I think that he gives himself a certain negotiating advanatage that he wouldn't have if he just came out swinging--assuming that he's serious about not caving in, of course.

Steele, though, appeared to dismiss even the appearance of negotiation as ass-kissing, which of course was hugely dishonest of him seeing as how (IMO at least) an African-American man who allies himself with a movement that was fundamentally founded upon anti-black racism (among other forms of bigotry) is obviously himself guilty of such behavior (if not worse).

Perhaps I'm misreading something here, but this was my take of it.

The liberal soul shall be made fat. He who waters shall be watered also himself. (Proverbs 11:25)


[ Parent ]
Could You Show Me Where (0.00 / 0)
You get this from Steele's own words?  Because I just don't see it.

Transcript is here.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
This is crap (0.00 / 0)
I work with a young black man. He's our managing editor.  Like all young black men, he knows what you do when the police pull you over. "Assume the position."  It's so routine, most blacks don't even bother talking to whites about it.  But, it does give folks a good reason to presume that white America  as a whole is still racist.

This is such fucking bullshit that I registered a login just to point this out. There's racism in America no doubt. But I'm tired of people over generalizing comments like this and using it to paint broad strokes. I've never had to "assume the position" when a cop pulls me over and I've also never had this be the defacto action I take.

I doubt don't that some people do experience this and of course as an African American I think its pretty fucked up. But I'm tired of 1. people generalizing the mood of all African Americans. You know, a lot, if not most African Americans don't think that all white people are racist. This just feeds into the downtrodden angry black man/woman stereotype that people have of African Americans.

Furthermore, I don't buy it. We won't get rid of racism by allowing white guilt to tell "white liberal America" to say "oh its okay, they know best." I call bullshit. We need to tell all people of all races that you can't generalize against an entire people.

There's a connection between justifying "reverse racism" and the mentality that a lot of African Americans seem to have about "the man" keeping them down or the idea that you can never be succesful if you're a minority.

Even worse, this "the white man is racist" mentality is a significant part of what fuels the idea that if you have white friends or "act white" (IE get an education, don't talk in a certain dialect,etc) that you're a sell out.

Look, I don't think that the majority of African Americans are racist or monolithic. I don't think that most African Americans hold most of the bad qualities above. But too many do and it doesn't help anyone. The idea that there is a way that "black folk act" doesn't help anyone.

If people have white guilt they should assuage it by doing things like helping the poor and fixing education, things that heavily affect minorities, instead of patting us on the head and saying its alright.


Also (0.00 / 0)
I'm not trying to be a dick or anything. I'm just really tired of all this race baiting. You know just because something can have a racially insensitve connotation doesn't mean that it was meant to be racial insensitive.

First, the meaning of words change throughout time. What was inappropriate once isn't always inappropriate. The word gay orginally meant happy but not it means homosexual. Queer just meant weird and then it was a slur for homosexuals but now we can say it again. I gurantee you that a lot of people didn't know Shuck and Jive had racial origins. And I bet that the majority of people that did know that were from an older generation.

This leads me to my second point. In my experience, a lot of "white people" accidently say things that they're not aware are racial insensitive. It might be a "lame" point to make but it's very true. I still have people who get nervous about whether they should say black or African American. With the way that racial tensions and poltical incorrectness change,ie words we can or can not say. I don't keep track of racial insensitive words, I doubt that a non minority would.


[ Parent ]
Political correctness, my brother, (0.00 / 0)
Is a canard. The idea that racist words and terminology can and should be said with impunity is absurd. That, as far as I see it, is the implication of the use of political correctness in today's environment.

What is odd is that political correctness in a more true form, taking into consideration actual politics and possible consequences of a real nature from the wider society for infractions, would be NOT talking out against the war in Iraq, or NOT opposing the exploitation of black and brown people for economic gain.

Simply put, I can't disagree more about the whole idea of defending racially insensitive words because to do otherwise would be "politically correct".


[ Parent ]
Do You Even Know What It Means???? (0.00 / 0)
This is such fucking bullshit that I registered a login just to point this out. There's racism in America no doubt. But I'm tired of people over generalizing comments like this and using it to paint broad strokes. I've never had to "assume the position" when a cop pulls me over and I've also never had this be the defacto action I take.

Given what you've written, I have to assume not.  "Assume the position" is context dependent.  When you're first pulled over, it means hands on the steering wheel at 10 and 2, so there can be no mistaking that you pose no threat and are not reaching for anything that even remotely, possibly could be a gun.  You have to do this in order to assure that you do not get shot.

You also have some pretty severe reading comprehension problems:

I doubt don't that some people do experience this and of course as an African American I think its pretty fucked up. But I'm tired of 1. people generalizing the mood of all African Americans. You know, a lot, if not most African Americans don't think that all white people are racist. This just feeds into the downtrodden angry black man/woman stereotype that people have of African Americans.

Where do you get this stuff?  I never said anything about "the mood of all African Americans."  Making sure you don't get shot has nothing to do with people's mood.  My editor is a pretty easy-going guy.  I'm not generalizing anything, I'm simply using his experience as an anecdotal example of how pervasively blacks are impacted by racism in ways that whites seldom are aware of. Decades of public survey  research shows that blacks experience racism on a much more pervasive basis than whites are aware of, and I see nothing wrong with using a close-to-hand annecdotal fact to make that point.

Furthermore, I don't buy it. We won't get rid of racism by allowing white guilt to tell "white liberal America" to say "oh its okay, they know best." I call bullshit. We need to tell all people of all races that you can't generalize against an entire people.

I have no idea what the hell you mean by "generalize against an entire people," but you most certainly can generalize about what sorts of experience and conditions are common to what percentage of a given group of people.  It's called sociology.  What's not legitimate is assuming that the general group experience determine the individual attitude.  But I didn't do that.  Not even close.

Even worse, this "the white man is racist" mentality is a significant part of what fuels the idea that if you have white friends or "act white" (IE get an education, don't talk in a certain dialect,etc) that you're a sell out.

Look, I don't think that the majority of African Americans are racist or monolithic. I don't think that most African Americans hold most of the bad qualities above. But too many do and it doesn't help anyone. The idea that there is a way that "black folk act" doesn't help anyone.

It's a well-documented fact that self-destructive behavior by subordinated social groups is part of the system of social dominance that keeps them down.  African Americans are in no way unique in this regard, and because it is a social group phenomena, it is utterly mistaken to blame people on an indiviual level for this sort of behavior.  The system is designed to produce it.

Now, this doesn't mean that you just accept it as it is.  And doesn't mean that you don't use a sense of personal responsibility and pride to motivate people if you can.  But you have to know where the true causes of things lie if you ever want to stop playing catch-up and get ahead of the game.

If people have white guilt they should assuage it by doing things like helping the poor and fixing education, things that heavily affect minorities, instead of patting us on the head and saying its alright.

Hence the title of this diary, and the snarky aside.

Too many white folks play the victim and then project their own slacker attitudes onto blacks. My view is simple: As a white man, with no hand in the creation of slavery and segregation, I am not responsible for them. But I am responsible for cleaning up the mess.

Just as I've inherited gifts I had no hand in creating, I've inhereted curses, burdens, and messes as well. Such is life.  You don't look backwards for justice.  You look forward, and say, "What can I do?" 

Tom Paine said, "If there be trouble, let it be in my time, that my children may know peace."  As with peace, so with justice.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
I'm white (0.00 / 0)
and the few times that I've been pulled over (for speeding) I have always "assumed the position". I thought that it was simply common knowledge and sense among smarter drivers (although, I suppose that it could be argued that if you get pulled over for speeding, you're not necessarily that smart a driver unless it was a deliberate if not illegal speedtrap that some small towns engage in to boost revenue, but I digress yet again), and that this is simply what you do, whatever your skin color, out of courtesy to the cop who has no idea who you are or what you're capable of, in order to get on his or her good side and perhaps avoid a ticket, and to avoid adverse consequences with the occasional crazyass cop.

I've also always assumed that the problem wasn't just in what happened after a person of color got pulled over, but in the fact that they tend to get pulled over disproportionately and often for no reason other than because they're of color (and perhaps driving the sort of car that "decent" people of color aren't supposed to be driving), and that even when they do "assume the position" and act in the most courteous manner possible, still get treated like crap disproportionately just because of their skin color.

I think we agree. I'm just trying to point out that this is an immensely complex problem, whose various proposed and/or attempted solutions (whether good faith or Orwellian) themselves often contribute to the problem, whether knowingly or not.

The liberal soul shall be made fat. He who waters shall be watered also himself. (Proverbs 11:25)


[ Parent ]
Most White Folks Don't Get Pulled Over Often Enough (0.00 / 0)
to develop the automatic response.

Me, personally, I don't have the fear of reaching for my wallet to pull out my ID drilled into me.  I honestly can't remember what I've done when I've been pulled over, but getting my ID out sounds about right.

The Long Beach Police haven't killed an innocent white dude since I moved here in 1994.

I did have a plainclothesed policeman try to go all Walker, Texas Ranger on me once, because I was making a turn and got in his way when he came tearing out of nowhere well above the speed limit without his siren on.  But a single tenacious observer was enough to head him off.

So, no Skinnerian mindset for me, thank God!

I've also always assumed that the problem wasn't just in what happened after a person of color got pulled over, but in the fact that they tend to get pulled over disproportionately and often for no reason other than because they're of color

That'd be the heart of the matter.  Gets them reflexes down real good!

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Jewish paranoia, I guess (0.00 / 0)
Perhaps it's less pronounced out on the left coast? ;-)

Although, while I grew up in NYC, the only times that I've ever been pulled over have been some distance from there, either upstate NY or flyover (or drive-through, what have you) America, where the troopers tend to be beefy and none too ethnic-looking (and perhaps ethnic-friendly).

Of course, I was probably also--and perhaps unfairly--assuming that between my out of state plates and appearance and the fact that they profile people for a living, they'd not only instantly make me out to be an outsider, but treat me with what a lot of New Yorkers (fairly or unfairly) assume will be rude and contemptuous behavior on the part of some insecure provincial law enforcement type who resents all us city slickers telling him that he can't own a gun and speeding through his section of the interstate.

I.e. some cross between Thelma and Louise and Annie Hall, with a little bit of that famous New Yorker cover thrown in. There is some reality there.

In any case, while this is obviously incomparably worse for people of color, growing up Jewish in NYC does tend to make you somewhat wary when you leave its reassuring and familiar confines to venture into the great goyishe jungle. ;-)

And fwiw, I've since at least partly overcome this, having driven and taken trains cross-country several times, spent some time in flyover America, and moved to superficially tolerant but not terribly Jewish Seattle. So I "speak the language" (or at least understand it) better now than I did back in my NYC days. I think.

But I'm still quite careful when pulled over. Just to be sure.

The liberal soul shall be made fat. He who waters shall be watered also himself. (Proverbs 11:25)


[ Parent ]
Hmmmm... (0.00 / 0)
My view is simple: As a white man, with no hand in the creation of slavery and segregation, I am not responsible for them. But I am responsible for cleaning up the mess.

Makes me think, for some reason, of pollution and climate change.


[ Parent ]
Damn Straight! (0.00 / 0)
It's called "environmental justice" and "climate justice."

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
Excellent diary (4.00 / 1)
Thank you for this excellent post. It's great to see a concrete application of Kegan's subject/object schema demonstrating the limitations of conservative thought.

Some thoughts on the post:

> The Edwards and Obama contrast is between challenger and bargainer styles. The fundamental question is what style is needed for the changes ahead. Edwards argues the problems we face are so great we need to challenge them head on. Obama argues it always better to convince more people to join your side. I have a slight preference for Edwards style, but if he can pull it off I think Obama's approach is a better one.

> Obama is only an invisible man if you ignore his past actions. Pay attention to what he has actually done -- that says plenty about who he is.

> Perhaps Obama's inner message -- who he really is -- is his core message of hope and optimism. Were it not genuine, could it be so effective?

They call me Clem, Clem Guttata. Come visit wild, wonderful West Virginia Blue


Interesting Points, But... (4.00 / 1)
Taking the last one first:

Perhaps Obama's inner message -- who he really is -- is his core message of hope and optimism.

(a) hope is not a plan,

Were it not genuine, could it be so effective?

(b) As DDay wrote, about the Gropenator, over at Digby's place:

The first thing Schwarzenegger did in office was eliminate an increase in the vehicle license fee, depriving government of $8 billion dollars in revenues. Then he sought to solve every problem under the sun through massive amounts of borrowing, combined with a philosophical opposition to any tax increases. This constrained any solutions to move the state forward to a narrow band. Then he cut worker's compensation benefits to benefit his corporate buddies. All the while he spent and spent and tried to be all things to all people, in the interest of being liked. An example (Not that I'm a fan of the heartless Tom McClintock, but the quote is so instructive).

  McClintock showed the governor a chart he had drawn. It illustrated that spending under Davis had increased an average of 7% a year. Under Schwarzenegger, it was climbing at a 10% rate. Similarly, he pointed out, the deficit -- the billions being spent over the revenue coming in -- was larger than under Davis.

  According to McClintock, the governor replied: "That is bad news that people don't want to hear. People want to hear only good news. I don't want to hear pessimism. I'm an optimist."

Now, I'm not saying "Obama=Gropenator".  Not by a long shot. But you do have a rather strange situation with at least three major articulators of "post-partisanship"--Obama, Bloomberg and the Gropenator.  And all of them selling... well, themselves, above all. 

You have multiple attempts to stike the populist chord, too.  But economic populism has enough meat on its bones that Hucklebee and Paul don't even dare go near the laugh test, much less try to pass it.  Post-partisanship is a lot more slippery character, and hope is one of its shinning, if rather slippery attributes.

In this same spirit, I agree that one can look to Obama's past actions, but it seems that one can read them in a wide variety of different ways.

One distinct possibility is that the primary campaign may force him to become more clearly specific on a broader range of issues.  I, for one, would welcome that.

Jesse Jackson said, "Keep hope alive!"  But that was desert, not his main course.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Shelby Steele is Jealous of Insiders (black & white alike) (4.00 / 1)
Shelby Steele seemed to twist all the assessments he made of Barak Obama to present them in the most negative terms.

According to Steele:

Obama is a "bargainer" which is "bad" because (in Steele's view):

A)blacks want to be angry at whites since that's their only power;
B)Obama is only pretending to be civil to whites, so that doesn't count;
C) Obama is a liberal, and most blacks are liberal Democrats, so he's not really offering anything new
D)Obama was not raised in a ghetto, and was raised by his white mother and grandparents in Hawaii where he was accepted, so he does not really know what it's like to be black.

Steele, on the other hand, sees himself as a true believer because:
*He is conservative, even though most blacks don't like that
*He got his values from his white mother and black father who remained married and lived with the family
*He is willing to stand up for what is "right"

Frankly, I see Obama as a very positive force in American politics.

Imagine that we had a President who said we all have value. That we do not have to stand, furious at one another and afraid all the time, in order to succeed as a community or as a nation. That black and white people can like each other and respect each other.


[ Parent ]
I Agree With Some of Your Pieces, But Not The Whole (0.00 / 0)
I don't think Steele sees the bargainer as bad, because I don't think he puts the individual pieces you cite together in the way that you do, at least not here.

While it makes sense to say that Steele sees himself or could be categorized as a "true believer," he did not make this argument in this interview, and it does not fit into his Challenger/Bargainer schema, at least without further elaboration.

In particular, he isn't saying that "Obama is only pretending to be civil to whites."  Nor does the question of where Obama was raised figure into the issue of being a bargainer or not. 

Imagine that we had a President who said we all have value. That we do not have to stand, furious at one another and afraid all the time, in order to succeed as a community or as a nation. That black and white people can like each other and respect each other.

Oh, you mean a Democrat!

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Steele, (0.00 / 0)
as usual for himself, is being snarky about those who would truly challenge or even criticize the systems we have in place. It's a deeply conservative notion actually, as I see it.

[ Parent ]
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