A Deeper Look Into The Clinton, Obama and Edwards Coalitions

by: Chris Bowers

Sun Aug 12, 2007 at 16:00


Matt's post Saturday on John Edwards, along with the original source post he quoted from of from Jack and Jill politics, led me to take another look deeper into the intra-party coalitions fueling the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination contest. Specifically, I was curious to see if it was true that Edwards still finds his base of support among middle-class white men, as the posts jointly implied. I was also interested to find possible demographic sources behind Clinton's recent rise, and see if perhaps there was a connection. To find this information, I turned to a recent poll by Pew, which shows Clinton's gains among specific demographic groups in the Democratic Party, and also to the RT Strategies / Cook Political Report surveys of the Democratic primary. Both surveys are particularly useful for this task since, unlike pretty much every other polling outlet, they offer detailed demographic cross-tabs on their national primary preference polls, and because they also amalgamate cross-tabs from multiple previous surveys, thus allowing for larger sample sizes and lower margins of error within cross-tabs.

Lots of good info in the extended entry, but here is the short version of the hypothesis I develop in this post: Edwards and Obama are losing the white creative class, leading to Hillary Clinton's recent gains.
Chris Bowers :: A Deeper Look Into The Clinton, Obama and Edwards Coalitions
In both surveys, I discovered the same patterns. First, Edwards has about twice the support among whites as he has among non-whites, although he trails both Clinton and Obama among both groups, and has dropped among both groups. Second, according to Pew, Clinton has gained twelve points on Obama among whites in their polls in March and April (moving from a 30%-22% advantage to a 37%-17% advantage), but only three point among African-Americans (moving from a 46%-36% advantage to a 47%-34% advantage). According to Cook / RT Strategies, among whites Clinton has gained 13 points on Obama from their April, June and July polls to their August poll, moving from a 29%-18% advantage to a 29%-15% advantage (source: two very large PDFs, here and here, both on page 21). However, among non-whites, Clinton's lead actually dropped slightly from April-July to August, moving from 37%-32% to 40%-36%. Among individual polls, shifts of this nature can be easily dismissed as statistical noise and the margin of error. However, for the same pattern to occur across two omnibus polls is a different matter. Clinton's gains among whites are statistically significant, while her gains among African-Americans are nowhere close to being so. In fact, it is statistically significant that she has not gained among non-whites considering her gain among whites.

Add this all up, and what it means is that Clinton is taking white supporters from both Obama and Edwards. Dig a little deeper, and one finds that those new Clinton supporters tend to be both male and not-conservative (that is, either liberal or moderate). According to Pew, Clinton has gained 16 points on Obama among moderates and 13 points among liberals, but she has actually lost eight points relative to Obama among conservative Democrats. According to Cook / RT Strategies, Clinton has lost two points relative to Obama among conservatives, but gained 21 relative points among moderates, and 8 relative points among liberals. In terms of gender, according to Cook, Clinton has gained 3 points relative to Obama among women, and 17 points relative to Obama among men. In the Pew survey, that gap was smaller, but still the same, as Clinton gained 13 points relative to Obama among men, and 7 points relative to Obama among women.

There seems to be a pattern here: liberal, white men are shifting to Clinton, and away from Obama and Edwards. As such, there now appears to be virtually no gender or ideological gap in the Democratic nomination campaign. However, a racial / ethnic gap persists. In fact, within that gap, a reverse gender gap appears to be forming, as Obama holds a lead among African-American women 42%-37% across all four Cook / RT Strategies polls (huge PDF, page 25, sample of 194), but trails Clinton among African-American men, 43%-34% (sample size of 125). Taken together, this data all leads to some very counter-intuitive ideas about the coalitions Clitnon, Obama and Edwards are putting together in the nomination contest:
  • Clinton's base of support is no longer women, and no longer conservatives. Basically, she has eliminated the "creative class gap" she faced against Obama. At this point, her support only skews heavily among Baby Boomers, those who never went to college, and lower income voters. It is entirely unclear to me what about her message causes this shift.

  • Obama's base of support remains the young, the secular, the college educated, and African-American women, but not to the same degrees it once was. Among other things, this actually throws the "history" narrative out the window, or at least allows Obama to strangely corner the market on it. Why are African-American women more supportive of Obama than African-American men? Again, I really don't know, but it might cause us all to rethink some of our core assumptions about the campaign.

  • Edwards shows virtually no significant demographic skews in his coalition, except that he is less popular among non-whites, and more popular in the Midwest than any other region. This makes me think that it isn't so much that Edwards's poverty message isn't resonating with African-Americans and non-whites per say, but rather than it is mainly resonating with rural and rust-belt voters. His message is connecting to the experience of a certain type of poverty, but not to the widespread urban poverty that is the more common in America.

I think, if anything, it is that last bit that simultaneously explains Edwards struggles among non-whties, and Hillary Clinton's recent gains. Where I think Edwards is truly struggling in this campaign is articulating a message, or in creating an image, that fits culturally with the contemporary urban experience that is widespread among the Democratic electorate. At the same time, this is an area in which Hillary Clinton is improving, and as such eating into Obama's base of support. Think about Obama's original sources of strength for a moment, using Pew's crosstabs from April as a touchstone. What sort of coalition combines African-Americans and the young with secular, liberal, wealthy, well-educated creative class types? Above all else, that is clearly an urban coalition, since all of those groups congregate heavily in major metropolitan areas. Now, Hillary Clinton is eating into the creative class portion of Obama's coalition, and Edwards is still having a difficult time appealing to that group of voters himself. For one reason or another, Edwards and Obama are not sealing the deal with the white, urban creative class, and Clinton is using their failure in that regard to further solidifiy her position in the polls.

As a full-time blogger who not only writes for an audience largely composed of urban and suburban creative class types, but who certainly fits into the urban, secular, liberal and well-educated categories himself, I think I can provide an explanation for the struggles Obama and Edwards are facing in this area. Before I even saw any poll numbers on the 2008 campaign, I wrote the following in late 2006:

I think Obama, simply in terms of his demeanor and his biography, strongly appeals to politicos from a new generation and a new socioeconomic class because he strikes them in some sort of gut, intuitive level as being from that class. Multi-ethnic, post-Vietnam, highly educated, raised in a major urban center--these are many of the cosmopolitan, self-creating, forward looking aspects of life for many younger professionals. As much as we may or may not like Bill Clinton, coming from a little town in Arkansas is not a story many Americans can relate to anymore, because we just didn't grow up that way. Even John Edwards's story of growing up in a mill town when the mill closed seems very, very rustic for a northeasterner such as myself, since our mills closed down sixty years ago to move to places like North Carolina. These rustic visions of America simply are not where people are at these days, especially news junkies and activists within the Democratic Party and the bluer parts of America. Those people instead look to places like Harlem, where Bill Clinton now keeps his offices. People moving into the gentrifying areas of Harlem probably like Barack Obama quite a bit, and probably feel some sort of gut-level, identity-based connection with him that they can't even quite put their finger on at this point.

In addition to everything I listed above, Obama is a former community organizer who is a member of the United Church of Christ. Basically, everything about his history oozes progressive, urban creative class. However, you know what does not appeal to progressive, urban, creative class types these days? A "post-partisan" message, and stories about growing up in mill towns in rural America. That is just so not where the urban, progressive creative class is at these days. Most people who fit into that category are rabidly and vehemently anti-Republican, even if they are not always overtly pro-Democrat. And you know what else? Hillary Clinton comes off as a lot more urban, progressive creative class than her husband (she even doesn't hesitate to use the term "progressive), and those voters might be more open to her in a primary campaign than they were to Bill back in 1992.

In short, from both Obama and Edwards, I am seeing a failure to deal the deal with those sections of the Democratic Party that were most open to them in the earlier stages of the campaign. The consistent support Edwards received from the blogosphere as demonstrated in straw polls, and the early crosstabs on Obama's support, both clearly showed that the urban, progressive creative class was fertile ground for them. However, to date, they are not piecing together the coalitions they need to win the nomination because the depth of support they had among those groups was never very deep and, for one reason or another, they both failed to lock down that potential support before many voters in that category started drifting back toward Clinton. For now, that is my hypothesis, and I am sticking to it.


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i was combing the cook poll myself... (0.00 / 0)
and I did quickly notice that the gender gap had been pretty much eliminated, which seems weird to me. Gays have always had a thing for Clinton, but obviously that can't account for nearly all the shift.

Looking at the most recent Cook poll (Aug 2-5), and then at long-standing national trends, I have noticed Obama steadily fracture Clinton's grip on African-Americans. African-American women make up about 65% of AA voter turnout, and Obama has simply made major gains here. This would also support anecdotal evidence that Obama is gaining rapidly in South Carolina (53% black) and in the South across the board, where blacks are the backbone of the Party.

I also noticed that Clinton has picked up significant white support. However, I don't see this as so much a demand to screw the GOP. I see it as a shift from baby boomers from being pretty disengaged, into the Clinton camp.

Cook's most recent poll did show Clinton *owning* Obama among 18-34 year olds, and I found that to be simply ridiculous. I simply see no ground evidence whatsoever to support this.

I also think the idea that Obama has been "post-partisan" is more of a leftysphere narrative than a reality. John Edwards does not plaster "DEMOCRAT" all over everything he does either. Obama has been a pretty proud liberal on recent foreign-policy spats, domestic policy issues, etc.

I also have a hunch that many black primary voters consider themselves to be conservative Democrats, because they seem very uncomfortable with more immigration, gay marriage, and abortion. Even though they are the most liberal in terms of foreign policy and economics, on social issues they are probably closer to Mike Huckabee than Hillary Clinton.

The bottom line: Hillary is poaching white baby-boomer support from both Obama and Edwards. Obama has taken away black voters from Clinton. It's plausible that Obama is poaching Asian voters from Clinton as well, although outside of CA they aren't in any other demographic's league in terms of raw heft.

Edwards has a lot of "creative class" support, plus significant union support. I don't see how he beats HRC (other than the "Super Duper Slingshot" you mentioned the other day) because Obama's black support would flow to HRC en masse, and HRC would cut deeply into Obama's southern and midwestern delegates.

Good post.


Very intriguing analysis (0.00 / 0)
Adding to HRC's strength in this environment of new cultural narratives is that she has struggled herself to escape the post-modern narrative role-mongering of earlier generations.

In other words, the creative, urban class is no longer hanging with traditional narratives of Horatio Alger. Instead, they are living a new kind of story, much more like Hillary's -- is she a first lady or an independent force, is she a mother or a careerist, etc. etc. Is she first one, then the other? Is she all of them at once?

The trajectory of such narratives is vastly different than any "up from the bootstraps" account.

Of course, both Edwards and Obama have are living through similar narrative shifts. Especially Obama. Maybe both of them were betting too much on the power of yesterday's stories.


[ Parent ]
are you sure about this? (0.00 / 0)
"the widespread urban poverty that is the more common in America."

This is a common belief, but is it true?

Join us at the Missouri community blog Show Me Progress!


This bothered me too, (0.00 / 0)
so I looked it up.  It turns out that the urban poverty rate is about five percentage points lower than the urban poverty rate, but that the rural/urban split in the states is something like 75%/25% or 80%/20%.  So, you'll end up with more urban poor than you will with rural poor than urban poor (given that the national poverty rate seems to be somewhere around 15%, according to my cursory glance through the interweb) after you do the multiplication. 

So, rural areas are poorer than urban areas, but there are just a lot more urban areas than there are rural areas.


[ Parent ]
I Blame Clinton (4.00 / 1)
It turns out that the urban poverty rate is about five percentage points lower than the urban poverty rate ...

And that's difficult feat to achieve! 

(Just funning with ya)



[ Parent ]
Actually (0.00 / 0)
Only 23% of those under the poverty line live in the inner city.

Join us at the Missouri community blog Show Me Progress!

[ Parent ]
That makes sense (0.00 / 0)
Although we Americans have done our utmost to destroy our cities they are still the primary centers of economic activity and wealth creation - see Jane Jacobs (_various_.)  The barrier to the urban poor is not, necessarily, access to economic opportunity but a crumbling, underfunded, basic education system needed for inner city residents to acquire the skills necessary for the opportunities that exist. 

Whereas in rural areas economic activity is much more 'brittle,' almost always in one of the extraction industries, with very narrow range of job opportunities no matter what the skill set. 


[ Parent ]
Yes ... if we were to divide the 'urban' ... (4.00 / 1)
... population between inner-urban and suburban, the picture given by "urban/rural" would shift once more.

[ Parent ]
SUPPORT FOR THE CANDIDATES (0.00 / 0)
I wonder how solid that support is for Clinton. Most of these poll's were taken after the debate of whom Obama was crucified by the press and Clinton on whom to meet with and his statements on nuclear weapons.

Once his response at the KOS convention and now the AP article on nuclear weapons, a change has occurred in the Rasmussen poll which showed her support go from 44-45 to 38-40 and Obama's going from 21-22 to 27-28. These daily poll's will swing but the most recent polling on the race has been the daily Rasmussen polls.

If this week's Rasmussen poll's show Obama down by only 11-13 pts , then I think that Clinton's recent national poll's have been over stated and will move back to the April - June numbers.

For the first time the MSM is looking at her positions and giving her statement as being hypocritical and this is having an effect. They have not gotten into her health plan, which has not been released. Once her plan comes out and is compared with other's then these margin's will tighten.


[ Parent ]
No Real Idealogical Gap Among Democrats (0.00 / 0)
I find that poll fascinating.  It seems that Hillary Clinton has bridged the gap between liberal and moderate Democrats.  It was also interesting to read about how Clinton is scoring among African American Men as compared with African American Women.  I heard this explained by an African American Democratic woman on Hardball.  The more Obama is attacked by the other candidates and the media the more they feel they need to protect and mother him.  Its also interesting that Clinton seems to pick up moderate Republican support in a way no Democrat has since the Reagan Revolution.  I think most Americans realize this has been the most incompetent administration in the history of this nation and that Hillary Clinton partnered with Bill Clinton is the one to fix this.  The Clintons were never about ideology, their interests have always centered around policy.

WTF? (4.00 / 1)
"The more Obama is attacked by the other candidates and the media the more they feel they need to protect and mother him."

WTF? It mustn't have anything to do with Michelle Obama, Obama's better feel for black concerns, or Obama addressing any black concerns. No, it's about pity.

"Its [sic] also interesting that Clinton seems to pick up moderate Republican support in a way no Democrat has since the Reagan Revolution."

WTF?!


[ Parent ]
WTF?????? (0.00 / 0)
This comment was made by an African American Woman representing the Democratic party as to what the gain for Obama with African American Women means. 

[ Parent ]
I Think Doubts Will Start To Take A Toll (0.00 / 0)
I think voters are going to start thinking about Hillary's negatives more.  I work with a lot of republicans and when I hear them talk about Hillary it is with venom.  The republicans here in the panhandle disliked Bill Clinton and they dislike Hillary more.  I can only talk about what I hear in my little part of the world.  Maybe the panhandle of Florida doesn't really matter in the scheme of things, but I think that a Hillary nomination will energize the republican party like nothing else will do.  Right now the republicans are not energized because of Bush more than it is the selection of their candidates.  I think a Hillary nomination will get the repugs out to vote and they won't care who their repug candidate is.  I hope I am wrong, but I don't think so.

While I share your concern... (0.00 / 0)
  ...most voters, even most primary voters, aren't activists. Most voters don't base their primary choice on meta-concerns like "electability" or "what's best for the Democratic Party in the long run" (unless the media flogs it as a major issue, as they did with Dean in 2004). Most voters aren't thinking of downticket impact or coattails or anything like that when they make their decision on who to support in the primary -- they vote for the candidate they LIKE. And, truth to tell, a lot of people DO like Hillary, and telling them that she's likely to be poison to local races isn't going to influence their decision in that regard.

  So any anti-Hillary movement, at this point, will have to come from either (a) a sudden, massive media blitz questioning her electability, (b) a quiet revolt from local party officials concerned about the impact her nomination would have in their necks of the woods (which may yet happen), or (c) a strong, coordinated effort by one of the other candidates to hit a proper alternative-to-Clinton theme and aggressively promote it. None of those seems terribly likely at this time, though I will say that in my own county the support for Hillary within Dem political circles is close to nonexistent.

  I remain astonished that the Democratic power structure seems completely oblivious to the potential pitfalls of having Hillary Clinton leading the ticket. We're going to have half of our local candidates running away from her -- especially in those purple states the DLC crowd maintains are so critical to winning elections. It's a mystery. And it is NOT the recipe for a strong, coordinated campiagn in 2008.

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


[ Parent ]
Will the dems (0.00 / 0)
be successful again at stealing defeat from the jaws of victory??

[ Parent ]
Only if they want to (4.00 / 1)
  The possibility is there for a massive, sweeping Democratic landslide next year. It is well within the party's grasp.

  I'm not convinced they want it. Between the unflinching, unquestioning support of Hillary Clinton by the party's power structure and the pusillanimous obsequiousness of Congress to a president polling in the thirties, it doesn't appear that winning next year is something they're all that serious about.

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


[ Parent ]
Yup! (0.00 / 0)
What do you think about an independent run by Bloomberg??  I am beginning to hear a lot of positive support for him, but I think it is really an anti-Hillary sentiment by desperate people looking for real changes!

[ Parent ]
Depends on what you mean (0.00 / 0)
  As a person and as a candidate, Bloomberg is BAD, BAD NEWS. He's a right-winger posing as a "moderate" because, unlike most Republicans, he's well aware that running as a Bushie is poison at the ballot box these days. His claim to represent a "third way" is about as genuine as Bush's concerns for global warming. Stay away from him.

  Now, if you're talking about what his overall impact would be on the general election if he runs, that's a different question. I wouldn't attempt to speculate on whether he'd draw more votes from disaffected Republicans or disaffected Democrats. But I don't see a Bloomberg run helping the Democrats downticket if Hillary's the nominee, at all. And Hillary can win the general anyway -- it's the lower-tier races where she could have a seriously negative impact.

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


[ Parent ]
I don't want Bloomberg in the race (0.00 / 0)
And as a New Yorker I never voted for him, though I know lots of Democrats who did, but your characterization of him as a right winger is just totally off base.  When he was still a registered Democrat he hosted forums at his office for people like Chris Dodd, then the chair of the DNC, and he proudly called himself a liberal Democrat.  And frankly on social issues he is liberal.  On fiscal issues he's a little less liberal but he's not a right winger when it comes to taxes either.  Unlike Bush or Giuliani, he is not an inherently authoritarian candidate, though I am sure as a successful self made billionaire he doesn't hear "no" too often.

The reason I am "defending" him is that if he does enter the race and run on issues he cares about, caveat being that this may not be the way to actually try to win as a political independent, I think he could get the liberal Naderist vote and so hurt Democrats more than Republicans.

To defeat an enemy you better really know them, not just what you would like them to be.

And I think he's going to run.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Interesting! n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Why doesn't he just run as a Democrat, then? (0.00 / 0)
  I don't trust him in any way, and for liberal Democrats to vote for him is pure, sheer folly.

  He's a Lieberman buddy. 'Nuff said.

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


[ Parent ]
Of course voting for him is folly (0.00 / 0)
Re Lieberman it was personal and yes maybe Jewish solidarity.

But he won't run in either politial party primaries because those voters are too committed to their party to vote for him.

But as an independent with

1 billion dollars,
$1,000,000, 000!!!!

to put into a race he can flood all the media --- TV, radio, the mail.  I got 2-3 glossy 4 sheets a day for the last 2 weeks of the elelction in 2001.  He then can run without being having to be in any significant forums where he would have to be continually compared to the other potential nominees. He's smart but he lacks Clinton's expertise and assurance or Obama'a TVgenic prescence.  He's short, he has no political charisma and on a personal level he is pleasant, but without the real personal skills of someone like Bill or yes even HIllary Clinton.

He would eventually wither under the kind of scrutiny as the Dems had last week, 3 forums to 3 interest groups in one week.  By the way while he's learned to be tactful, certainly he has handled race relations in NYC better than Rudy.... unlike many polticians he mostly says what he thinks.  He has not had to develop an ear to understand other groups or issues, but that is not to say he is heartless.  He is not.  He has decent instincts unlike the R's, but frankly he doesn't see any need to think in an unconventional way.  He's a success in that world.  This netroots universe... he wouldn't get it even enough to know he had to court us.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Democratic power structure (0.00 / 0)
Ah yes, surely the Democratic power structure will save us from the ignorant voters who are supporting Hillary. Those fools are just being led around by the media. Let's have a brokered convention! Then we can stop her!

pathetic.


[ Parent ]
Talk about missing the point... (4.00 / 1)
  If Dem powerbrokers want to sink Hillary's candidacy, it's certainly within their ability to do so. See: Howard Dean, 2004. In fact, the ONLY time the Dem power structure shows ANY kind of coordinated aggressiveness is when they want to sabotage a Dem who strays off the DLCesque reservation too much. This year's model is John Edwards.

  Imagine if they directed that kind of action against Republicans...

  Anyway, my point is that for all we heard about how damaging Howard Dean was going to be to the party's prospects in 2004 (claims for which there was no real evidence), we hear virtually NOTHING about the potential for Hillary to severely blunt what could be a massive Democratic landslide in 2008, even though the evidence on hand is far more tangible and substantial. Can anyone seriously deny that a good chunk of otherwise disillusioned Republicans will turn out to specifically vote against Hillary? Is the Dem leadership completely oblivious to this? How are they going to deal with this reality? Shouldn't we at least be discussing it? Why was this such a huge deal with Howard Dean but such a nonissue with Hillary?

  If one departs from the assumption that the Democrats want to maximize their electoral successes in 2008, the establishment's denial of Hillary's obvious liabilities is puzzling to say the least.

 

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


[ Parent ]
Gephardt, Gibbs (0.00 / 0)
Dean's primary opponents took him down, not Dem power brokers. Specifically the Gephardt campaign and Robert Gibbs, Obama's communications director. Clinton's first task as a candidate was to address DC whispering about her liabilities, its not like she had a free ride from Democratic figures and pundits.

[ Parent ]
Gephardt ran a kamikaze mission (0.00 / 0)
  Gephardt (who had no chance to win anyway) was specifically enlisted to take out Dean, which he did. It was coordinated -- along with the Torricelli-funded Osama ad and a full-pronged attack through the media and Club for Growth ads.

  You're still ignoring my point. Why did we hear so much about Dean's supposed unelectability, and so little about Hillary's? "Addressing DC whispering about her liabilities" is hardly a satisfying answer. Maybe she addressed the whispering; has she addressed the actual liabilities? And she damn well HAS gotten a free ride from the media since she declared her candidacy -- her coverage has been VASTLY milder than that afforded her opponents. (Don't worry -- that will change quickly in March.)

  Then again, if this is all about Hillary Clinton to you, and not about the Democratic Party or about America, you probably don't care.

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


[ Parent ]
voters (0.00 / 0)
What matters is what message persuades voters. If Clinton's primary opponents find that 'hurts down ticket' helps them gain on her then you will hear a lot about her coat tails in the press. The Edwards campaign is trying this tack with the recent AP story quoting Edwards supporter Andy Arnold. I doubt this attack will help, Clinton has broad appeal among Democrats and a clear path to the presidency in the general, so the attack has very little credibility among voters.

The idea that Gephardt, Torriccelli, the unions and the Club for Growth got together to destroy the Gephardt campaign on behalf of some power broker's effort to take down Dean strains credibility, to put it mildly. But, to put this in your terms, the Edwards and Obama power brokers will have to conspire to take down Clinton.

So the answer to your question is that you have not heard much about Clinton's unelectability because the power brokers have not found it to be an effective attack. The power brokers appear to be trying an 'unelectability' message through the Edwards campaign, so maybe the conspiracy is ready to make a move and you will hear 'unelectability' more now. Maybe these power brokers will sacrifice Edwards and order a tort reform group to push the message in an effort to make Obama the nominee.


[ Parent ]
You KEEP missing my point (4.00 / 1)
  The party's power structure is BEHIND Hillary Clinton. They WANT her to win the nomination. They're SUPPORTING her. Obama and Edwards and the others have pockets of support, but the institutional backing is firmly behind Hillary. They have no incentive to take her out, as they did with Dean -- Hillary's their candidate.

  And this blind support comes despite numerous red flags about her coattails in a general election. Be honest; could you possibly envision Larry Grant or Gary Trauner or Scott Kleeb publicizing their association with Hillary Clinton in order to GAIN votes in their districts?

  I know lots of Democratic voters find Hillary Clinton to be personally appealing. That's not the point; like I said, most primary voters don't think in the same terms activists do. They just vote for who they like, without thinking much about the side implications. I strongly disagree that she has a "clear path to the presidency" -- as we saw with the John Kerry campaign, Democrats usually tend to be caught flat-footed when the Republicans decide to attack.

  And I'm just asking if the party establishment has a plan to deal with these issues, given that they're firmly backing Hillary for the nomination. They haven't shown any evidence that they do.

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


[ Parent ]
mocking, not missing (0.00 / 0)
I'm not missing your point, I'm mocking your premises. The Democratic establishment is not monolithic, and voters do not vote simply on likeability.

Edwards has a lot of institutional support from unions, but they are reluctant to endorse him because they think Clinton has a good chance of winning the presidency.

Obama is well liked by Democrats but most don't plan to vote for him, they say they will vote for Clinton who, while not as likeable, has the policies and substance to be a better president in their judgement.


[ Parent ]
Just don't whine... (0.00 / 0)
  ...when two-thirds of our congressional candidates spend half their campaign money and most of their rhetoric trying to convince voters that they're "not like Hillary". Or when they find other things to do when Hillary comes to campaign in their state.

  Maybe the Democrats have a secret plan to deal with this. I'm sure it's similar to their secret plan to deal with the swiftboaters...

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


[ Parent ]
No Urban Poverty in New Orleans? (4.00 / 1)
As a member of the white, educated, creative class, I would like to report that as much as I love Hillary and Obama, I wonder about their creativity, preparedness and dynamism coming into this crucial election. Obama is creaive and dynamic, like John Edwards, but in terms of preparedness...is about where John Edwards was in 2000.
Hillary, on the other hand is prepared, like John Edwards, but lacks in the creative and dynamic department. At times I sense that she is looking at her watch -- flashback to Herbert Walker in Richmond -- just waiting to return to homeostasis.

My other concern with Hillary is that the Right has been fighting her, planning this (in their minds) inevitable conclusion...and have solid blocks of people harboring, by now, organic hatred for her. Many of these same bohunks would never vote for someone named Hussein, especially if he is not of their particular shade. Granted, many of these folks could go straight to Hell...but others just need to be shown correct information.

On your comment about Edwards not experiencing urban poverty, I'd have to say that, at least from my experience of it, New Orleans is not a corn field, nor is it suburbia.
I agree though that they all, we all, would do well to do good in these often hidden pockets of poverty, of which there are thouaands around our own country.

Cut Edwards some slack. The MSM is already doing their best to marginalize him. Had he not been marginalized in 2004, he might well have been the forerunner, and we would already be on better soil.


I agree with you, Chris, but see another dimension at play... (0.00 / 0)
that came out of the YKos presidential forum. Namely, HRC is human. She screwed up on the lobbyist question, got roundly hammered on it and, in an absolutely weird way, benefited from it.

I know the forum wasn't seen by most and that it's too early, and difficult because of other debates (AFL-CIO, Logo) to separate effects of these. Yet, the point is that she is, perhaps, becoming increasingly humanized. Before, the MSM and the Goops characterized her as an automaton, someone less, or different, than regular people. Calculating, the proverbial bitch on wheels. I get this feeling, and I admit it's only a feeling, she's making real progress on that front. In terms we believe that are critical for this election, she's getting authentic. Very important development.

*If* that is so, gaining ground among creatives, men,  urban and other groups is a natural outgrowth of this strategy, IMHO. Thus, at one level, not really that surprising.

The real question, in my view, is whether Edwards and Obama recognize the subtlety here and respond effectively to it. I think both are generally considered authentic. *But* when HRC does the same, she's strategically matched their strength. Big, big development. And thus, in that context, your analysis is spot on.


by what contorted rationale (0.00 / 0)
does a fulsome defense of lobbyists gain HRC points with anybody?

[ Parent ]
It's not the lobbyists... (0.00 / 0)
It's she's working harder to be humanized. That's the point. The specific issue was less important than she took the hits and was humanized by it. Humbled, in short. And she got hit, hard, at the forum and deserved it. Yet, I also had the impression "she's not invulnerable, she can be had." That's a humanizing sea change from MSM.

Forget the lobbyist question as the context for a moment. The point is she got hurt by us. *We hurt her.* She blushed, she struggled, thus, she started to become human, and by doing that, she matched Edwards and Obama on the authenticity front. *That's* what I'm trying point out. (I had a follow-up more detailed reply to my own point because it wasn't clear enough and the fricking computer rebooted on me. Sorry I lost that.)

Bottom line hypothesis, and it *is* an hypothesis: the internals Chris is talking about are a result of a calculated move by HRC's campaign to match Edwards and Obama on their strongest point: being human, authentic. If she does that, she is moving to another level. If they don't counter, it's bad news bears.

And to be completely clear, I'm no HRC supporter. Trust me. I'm an Edwards guy. But I'll work for our nominee, regardless who he/she is. I want my guy to see the danger posed in this development, to be perfectly honest. 


[ Parent ]
Defense of lobbyists (0.00 / 0)
I think her defense of lobbyist's has hurt her that came up on Aug. 4th in my opinion that has led to her drop in Rasmussen's polls. Most of these polls time frame were Aug 2-5th. These remarks would not show up in polling till the polling from Aug. 9th and forward.

My theory is that Rasmussen's poll's this week will show a 10 pt lead. If this is so then her numbers are soft. If her numbers go to 17-20 pts then my theory is wrong.


[ Parent ]
It is high time (4.00 / 2)
for the progressive, urban, creative class to start embracing post-partisanship and stop embracing failure as proof-positive of their integrity.  That old road is rapidly aging.

not really (0.00 / 0)
... but it IS pretty pointless imo to demand that Democratic candidates make ridiculously uncredible promises and drive up their own negatives with non-Democrats to unelectable Hillaryesque levels before accepting them as "true progressives."

[ Parent ]
Polling on Obama's proposal about pakistan (0.00 / 0)
There is a poll out about Obama's position on Pakistan suggesting that it could be deeply unpopular among democrats.  I would guess at that being why he is falling.  It was a clever criticism, but too clever by half.

Hillary I think benefits from attacks against herself pretty easily and I'd guess at those being the gains.  Democrats don't want to be associated with the anti-hillary crowd.


My thoughts (0.00 / 0)
I have tried to think of why I and people of my background like Clinton. I am young Hispanic male who grew up poor but became college educated, grew up Catholic but became secular, and lived in several rural areas in my life. The phenomena I believe are relevant are loyalty and connection.

Hispanics are loyal to people that they feel have done good for them. They like to bet on what is reliable that helped them in the past. Progressives often note that Bill Clinton enacted some policies that they didn't like such as free trade policies and that he didn't fully push progressive issues as much as he could have. Regardless of that there is a feeling that President Clinton was a steward of the country during a time when Latinos were getting ahead and when it was easier to have hope and optimism. Loyalty to the Clintons comes easier because of that. Hillary was a large part of the Clinton team. To broaden the example, we wouldn't vote for and be loyal to the Democrats (absent complete toxicity of Republicans toward us, admittedly the case now) if we didn't believe that the benefit was mutual.

The other phenomena is the ability to really connect with people of color. It can't be faked. Republicans call this coddling but it is not. The converse is a complete lack of respect which George Allen demonstrated to an Indian man that he never met. Senator Edward Kennedy is one person who has the ability to connect with people of color. It's no wonder Hillary has it being the wife of the "first black president." She received some of the loudest applause at Howard University when bringing up the HIV/AIDS issue in a way the resonated with the audience. Hillary has the endorsement of Al Sharpton among many other prominent black leaders and celebrities. I remember that President Bush spoke Spanish countless times during the 2000 and 2004 elections. After he was elected he did seem to speak Spanish anywhere near a camera. His efforts for the Immigration bill were somewhat admirable but his own party killed it.

These things in isolation are not enough. Clinton is a package that comes with several advantageous features among a few dubious ones. However, these are the things that I believe might be the causes of the persistent trending of non-whites to favor Clinton.

John McCain would love to send your kids to war.


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